The rudder waggle signal does not work

Nothing to argue with there. I've always felt that this was the
prudent way to use the rudder waggle.

The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
with the Capstan in tow. I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes. It is approved for cloud
flying. I flew it at IVSM with Shane, it took hardly any brake to make
a normal approach. I wouldn't be surprised that if the brakes on the
Capstan were full open the combination could not climb

All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy

On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:34:04 -0700, Tony wrote:

The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
with the Capstan in tow. I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes.

You're right: they're vertical speed-limiting brakes.

For those who don't know the Capstan, its brakes are at least as powerful
as those on a Puchacz, which also has vertical speed-limiting brakes.
I've only flown a Capstan once. At the end of that flight P1 demoed the
brakes with much the steepest approach and landing I've ridden through:
it made a fully braked ASW-20 approach, which I've flown quite a lot,
look shallow.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jul 26, 5:34*pm, Tony wrote:
Nothing to argue with there. I've always felt that this was the
prudent way to use the rudder waggle.

The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
with the Capstan in tow. *I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes. It is approved for cloud
flying. I flew it at IVSM with Shane, it took hardly any brake to make
a normal approach. I wouldn't be surprised that if the brakes on the
Capstan were full open the combination could not climb



All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So these guys were basically screwed right from the onset.....

But "standard" procedures would have prevented the
problem....Checklists etc...

Cookie

On Jul 26, 5:20*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 26, 4:34*am, "





wrote:
On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "

wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "

wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember.....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Don't understand your logic here......if the guys knew the
signals....the would have closed the spoilers...

Rudder waggle = close spoiler.....

Yes by reading this thread pilots should consider the importance of

Doing a proper pre flight
proper take off check list
keeping hand near or on spoiler handle
having situational awareness when poor climb... *check spoiler
Knowing signals.....
Developing an emergency plan tailered to each flight

Not expecting a 'magic voice" to come over the radio to save them once
they got themselves into a pinch...

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
immidiatly signal...
All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Confusion during emergency.......

I though being a pilot menat being able to handle emergencies.....

Plus where's the "pressure" when you get the "close spoiler signal"

If you are on tow....fat dumb and happy, with the spoiler open
(unknown to you) then you have no pressure at all....you think it is
a normal tow......If you get a signal...respond tothe signal....


If the tow is not gong well....like poor climb.....then you may gell
some "pressure"...."something is not right"....put again a good pilot
would "check spoiler"


Cookie

I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
immidiatly signal...
All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy

---------------------------------------------------------

Well, now, that's a reasonable request. But what I've heard from you
previously was demands for radios, eliminating signals, more safety
regulations, claims that it's the fault of the signals and not the glider
pilot. It's only the glider pilot who pulls the release in the glider and
only he can decide when.

Do your checklist whether written or from memory, formal or informal as long
as it works for you. Be prepared for the unexpected, KNOW what open
spoilers sound and feel like and how to handle the problem (it's not an
emergency unless you make it so). Just don't ask me to adhere to more
unnecessary rules and don't blame some visual signal for my mistakes.

For my part when I'm towing, I won't wave you off unless MY safety is at
stake, but if you force me to drag you to a "safe release altitude" because
you're too dumb to realize that your spoilers are open, I will NOT be towing
you again. Note: The previous was not directed at you, Ramy, but at anyone
dumb enough to hang on for 5 or 10 minutes with open spoilers while the tow
plane struggles to climb.

Dan

On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "





wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy....

Lets put and keep the responsibility where it belongs....

The onus is on the glider pilot....not the tow pilot......spoiler open
in flight is a glider pilot problem....

Cookie