Manual

On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:



You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.

On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:





On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? Anyway,
it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a
glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or
Rotorcraft Flight Manual? My type certified glider has an approved
"Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b
2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which
an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of
this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does
that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,
or any combination I choose?

As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. Para 7 says
"Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply
not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any
language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing he

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...er/8620_2A.pdf

-Dave (not a lawyer)

On Jan 18, 10:27*am, Dave wrote:
On Jan 18, 8:33*am, Bill D wrote:









On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

14 CFR 91.309 is about glider towing. Maybe you meant 91.9? *Anyway,
it talks about approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manuals. Can a
glider (not an airplane by FAA definition) have an Airplane or
Rotorcraft Flight Manual? *My type certified glider has an approved
"Flight Manual". But not an "Airplane Flight Manual". So maybe 91.9 b
2 applies. It says I can't operate a civil aircraft unless: "For which
an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by § 21.5 of
this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual
material, markings, and placards, or any combination thereof." Does
that mean I have to have everything listed that is available on board,
or any combination I choose?

As for the TCDS, check FAA order 8620.2a dated Nov 2007. *Para 7 says
"Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply
not enforceable. There must be a corresponding rule to make any
language on the TCDS mandatory." You can see the whole thing he

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...er/8620_2A.pdf

-Dave (not a lawyer)

Yes, 91.9 not 91.309.

91.9 requires the AFM to be on board and that the aircraft be operated
in accordance with it.

8620.21a is referring to "mandatory" service bulletins not being
enforceable.

On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D wrote:
On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:





On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is the definition of an AFM? Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

On Jan 18, 11:26*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Jan 18, 9:33*am, Bill D wrote:









On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:

You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Yes. *The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector.
AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on
board. *An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the
glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated
in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309)

A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear
plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider.
The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What is the definition of an AFM? *Wouldn't a copy of the AFM that
came with your glider (has glider s/n on it, for example), be the same
as the original AFM? *And how would a reduced size (but obviously
still readable) copy not also be an AFM?

Curious minds want to know!

Kirk
66

AFM = Approved Flight Manual. The reason they want the original AFM
on board is so it can (and will) be regularly updated with new pages
from the manufacturer and thus will be the only "official" AFM. A
copy would only be current at the time the copy was made. AFAIK, a
copy can be used for "educational" purposes.

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:33:25 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
"Yes. The question came up in a checkride with an FAA inspector. AFAIK, all JAR-22 certificated gliders require the AFM (POH) to be on board. An Approved Flight Manual (AFM) is actually part of the glider's certification documentation and the glider must be operated in strict compliance with it. (FAR 91.309) A simple solution is to vacuum seal the original manual in clear plastic after making a copy - then secure it safely in the glider. The copy can be used for reference and need not be on-board."

The FAA term AFM stands for Airplane Flight Manual to distinguish it from the FAA term Rotorcraft Flight Manual. Ref 14 CFR 1.2 Definitions. - "AFM means airplane flight manual".

If you are operating an airplane you may need to carry an AFM but, under FAA definitions, a glider is not an airplane. All the limitations of an FAA experimental certificate are defined in the operating limitations and no reference is typically made to any JAR requirement. If the operating limitation neither require, nor refer to, a flight manual then none is required.

14 CFR 91.309 relates to towing and seems to be unrelated to this topic.

The requirements for an AFM are defined in 14 CFR 23.1581 General - but part 23 does not define requirement or regulations for gliders.

I confirmed the non-applicability of an AFM to my experimental glider with AOPA legal services just last week as part of my preparation for a FSDO inspection of my glider.

No harm in carrying one though, I do carry mine. However, carrying it is very different from asseting that there is an FAA requirement to either carry it or comply with it.

Andy

On Jan 17, 7:55*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 1/17/2012 6:48 PM, T wrote:



You know that in the US the manual is not required to be on board if
the limitations are properly marked via placards and decals.

XF

That's news to me! Last I read, if it was listed in the TCDS or if the
manual (POH) said it had to be in the glider, then it needs to be in
the glider regardless of what is placarded. And the POH specifies the
minimum placards.

I've been flying gliders in the US since 1976, and I don't recall having
the manual on board ever being a safety or enforcement issue. Does
anyone know of an incident involving having a manual on board?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz