P-51's in movie "Empire of the Sun"

I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood skid
along the ground; amazing!!
shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so the
effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)
"Dave Kearton" wrote in
message ...
"QDurham" wrote in message
...
| Dan Ford wrote in part:
| See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a
cushion,
| or is that a myth?
|
| Probably a reality, but I don't recall noticing it in teh exercise
mentioned.
| Did have a friend who lost an engine in a P2V about half way to Hawaii.
| Officially, too heavy to stay airborne, dump enough fuel to be light
enough to
| stay airborne, and one hasn't enough fuel to reach land. Double bind.
| (It has ben suggested that is why Lindbergh elected a single engine
plane.
| With the engines available, if he had two and lost one -- splash. If he
had
| one and lost one -- splash. But the chances of losing an engine in a
single
| engine plane are half those of a twin.)
| They went down to zero altitude --ground effect max -- went through
plane
with
| bolt cutters dumping everything dumpable. They spent about 4 hours with
one
| mill feathered and the other operating beyond all redlines. Arriving at
| Barbers Point (?) there was no "letting down" to a landing. They simply
| lowered the gear onto the runway. Whew!
|
| Quent
|
|


Another example would be the Singapore Airlines 747-400 that had the tail
strike at Auckland a year ago. Pilot and 1st officer screwed up on
the load sheet (long story) and fed the numbers into the computer 100
tonnes
short.


As the plane was racing towards the end of the runway and still not taking
off, the pilot hauled back further on the stick - without advancing the
throttles. Tail drags for 400m while the plane accelerates _very_
slowly.

Eventually they lift off just before the end of the concrete - at
something
like 168 knots, which for that configuration, was 3-5 knots under their
stall speed. Such is the value of ground effect.


On another note ....

Helos also come with 2 max hovering altitudes - in ground effect and out
of
ground effect.



Cheers


Dave Kearton

"M. H. Greaves" wrote in message
...
| I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
| 400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
| underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood
skid
| along the ground; amazing!!
| shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
| treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so the
| effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)



I don't have the 747-400 manual on hand, but on one of the first few pages
it mentions that the APU is as effective as a wooden skid, if you drag it
along 400m of concrete.





Cheers


Dave Kearton

Not that its actually designed for this purpose of course!
"Dave Kearton" wrote in
message news
"M. H. Greaves" wrote in message
...
| I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
| 400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
| underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood
skid
| along the ground; amazing!!
| shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
| treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so the
| effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)



I don't have the 747-400 manual on hand, but on one of the first few
pages
it mentions that the APU is as effective as a wooden skid, if you drag it
along 400m of concrete.





Cheers


Dave Kearton

"Dave Kearton" wrote in message ...
"M. H. Greaves" wrote in message
...
| I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
| 400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
| underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood
skid
| along the ground; amazing!!
| shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
| treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so the
| effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)



I don't have the 747-400 manual on hand, but on one of the first few pages
it mentions that the APU is as effective as a wooden skid, if you drag it
along 400m of concrete.


Wooden skids give (false, thankfully in SQ286's case) APU fire warnings?

Some piccies

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/9v-smt/3.shtml
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...toryID=3200538

Discussion on aus.aviation:
www.google.com/groups?threadm=3abd9d15.0312151327.2d6555c2@posti ng.google.com

Cheers, Errol Cavit
"Il vino è la luce del sole catturata dall'acqua."
(Wine is sunlight held together by water.)
Attributed to Galileo Galilei

possibly, yes but its better than losing the ass of the plane!
"Errol Cavit" wrote in message
om...
"Dave Kearton" wrote in
message ...
"M. H. Greaves" wrote in message
...
| I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
| 400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
| underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood
skid
| along the ground; amazing!!
| shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
| treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so
the
| effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)



I don't have the 747-400 manual on hand, but on one of the first few
pages
it mentions that the APU is as effective as a wooden skid, if you drag
it
along 400m of concrete.


Wooden skids give (false, thankfully in SQ286's case) APU fire warnings?

Some piccies

http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/9v-smt/3.shtml
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydispl...toryID=3200538

Discussion on aus.aviation:

www.google.com/groups?threadm=3abd9d15.0312151327.2d6555c2@posti ng.google.c
om

Cheers, Errol Cavit
"Il vino è la luce del sole catturata dall'acqua."
(Wine is sunlight held together by water.)
Attributed to Galileo Galilei

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:01:17 -0000, "M. H. Greaves"
wrote:

I saw a video about the extensive testing of the early 747's (not the
400's), and the test pilots had a big wooden skid attached to the rear
underside, and were taking off at too steep an angle grinding the wood skid
along the ground; amazing!!

They put an oak skid on all airliners that they're certifying when
they get to the runway work. It's not exactly special to the 747.

Not having had anything to do with Cat I/II testing for transports or
bombers (just fighters), I don't know if the USAF does the same thing
with their transport airplanes, like the C-17 and C-130. I don't
recall ever having seen it, but that doesn't signify anything.

shows just how strong they were and how they could stand up to rough
treatment; of course the one at Aukland didnt have a wooden skid so the
effect must have been quite sparking, ('s'cuse the pun!!)

It always surprises me how long they can scrape the tail along the
runway without actually wearing through the skin.

Incidentally, ground effect is only there to about half the span above
the ground. For an interesting story about flying in ground effect,
look for the remarks by the (NASA?) pilot who flew the Canadian flying
saucer.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

For an interesting story about flying in ground effect,
look for the remarks by the (NASA?) pilot who flew the Canadian flying
saucer.

I have a report on that testing - the sign off officer for the report was
Chuck Yeager! I keep forgetting to get him to sign it.

Great to see you, Mary.

yf
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose AN engine, than THE engine.

On 22 Mar 2004 16:02:10 GMT, nt (Krztalizer) wrote:

For an interesting story about flying in ground effect,
look for the remarks by the (NASA?) pilot who flew the Canadian flying
saucer.

I have a report on that testing - the sign off officer for the report was
Chuck Yeager! I keep forgetting to get him to sign it.

Great to see you, Mary.

Great to be able to stop by. The movers come tomorrow for the first
pass, which includes all the NASA stuff, the aerospace books, and the
models, plus all the other books and the bookshelves and the beads.
There's a little other furniture, too, but not much. Then they come
back on the first for everything else, which includes the heretofore
untouched kitchen.

I stop by usenet for an occasional reconnection with the world and
sanity. I keep thinking of all the military wives who moved from one
set of military housing to another, every three years and I don't feel
so bad about this little move. (The last time we moved, rather than
adding another house, was in 1972, you see.) Compared to PCSing, this
is nothing.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

I have some pictures in bound issues of "Impact" that show a bomb from a
leading plane hit the water and skip then penetrate the wing of the second
plane. Photos are from number three as number two goes into the palm trees and
the moored Japanese ship is left untouched.

-- Charlie Springer

On 20 Mar 2004 19:30:00 GMT, QDurham wrote:
Dan Ford wrote in part:
See my question to Gord about ground effect. Is it really there, as a cushion,
or is that a myth?

Probably a reality, but I don't recall noticing it in teh exercise mentioned.
Did have a friend who lost an engine in a P2V about half way to Hawaii.
Officially, too heavy to stay airborne, dump enough fuel to be light enough to
stay airborne, and one hasn't enough fuel to reach land. Double bind.
[...]
They went down to zero altitude --ground effect max -- went through plane with
bolt cutters dumping everything dumpable. They spent about 4 hours with one
mill feathered and the other operating beyond all redlines. Arriving at
Barbers Point (?) there was no "letting down" to a landing. They simply
lowered the gear onto the runway. Whew!

There was a similar incident in August 1957, when an Air Force C-97 had a
propeller runaway midway between San Francisco and Hawaii. The #1 propeller
eventually separated from the engine, damaging the #2 engine and prop in the
process. The crew jettisoned everything they could, and the aircraft descended
to an altitude of around 100 feet. On two engines, they flew for almost five
hours in ground effect and made it to Hilo, Hawaii with about 30 minutes of
fuel remaining.

The incident is described in great detail in chapter 12 of Macarthur Job's
_Air Disaster, Volume 4_ (ISBN 1 875671 48 X).


ljd