Hiroshima/Nagasaki vs conventional B-17 bombing

"hiroshima facts" wrote in message
m...
"zxcv" wrote in message
...
Since the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs were about 10 kilotons and a B-17
had
a normal bomb load of about 3 tons and I have heard of a formation of
1300
B-17's on a bomb run that would equal around 4 kilotons (3 x 1300 =
3900)
would the devastation be the same as a small A-bomb? or is there some
lessening effect because of the spread of much smaller bombs?


Even in the worst cases of conventional bombing (like Tokyo), only 10%
of the affected population was killed.

In most of the Japanese cities firebombed, the death rate was about
1%.

The A-bombs killed about half of the people in the affected area both
times.

This is clearly incorrect , In 1946, the Manhattan Engineer District
published
a study that concluded that 66,000 people were killed at Hiroshima out of a
population of 255,000. Of that number, 45,000 died on the first day and
19,000
during the next four months.

Also in 1946, the Hiroshima police estimated the dead at 78,150 and the
missing
at 13,983, for a total of about 92,000 if all the missing are presumed dead
(a very unlikely hypothesis). So this estimate is not radically different
from
the American estimate.

In Nagasaki, out of a population of 174,000, 22,000 died on the
first day and another 17,000 within four months.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"hiroshima facts" wrote in message
m...

The A-bombs killed about half of the people in the affected area both
times.

This is clearly incorrect , In 1946, the Manhattan Engineer District
published a study that concluded that 66,000 people were killed at
Hiroshima out of a population of 255,000. Of that number, 45,000 died
on the first day and 19,000 during the next four months.

I don't think all 255,000 people were in the area affected by the
A-bomb, though.




In Nagasaki, out of a population of 174,000, 22,000 died on the
first day and another 17,000 within four months.

In the case of Nagasaki, I know all 174,000 were not in the affected
area, since the pilot could only get sight of the arms-production
complexes on the outskirts of the city and so dropped the bomb there
on the outskirts.

"hiroshima facts" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"hiroshima facts" wrote in message
m...

The A-bombs killed about half of the people in the affected area both
times.

This is clearly incorrect , In 1946, the Manhattan Engineer District
published a study that concluded that 66,000 people were killed at
Hiroshima out of a population of 255,000. Of that number, 45,000 died
on the first day and 19,000 during the next four months.

I don't think all 255,000 people were in the area affected by the
A-bomb, though.


I dont think all the population of Tokyo were in the area
affected by its bombing either but the target at Hiroshima
was the military HQ and there were at least 30,000 soldiers
in the area.




In Nagasaki, out of a population of 174,000, 22,000 died on the
first day and another 17,000 within four months.

In the case of Nagasaki, I know all 174,000 were not in the affected
area, since the pilot could only get sight of the arms-production
complexes on the outskirts of the city and so dropped the bomb there
on the outskirts.

Actually the arms plant was the target.

In neither case were half the population killed as you asserted

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...


I dont think all the population of Tokyo were in the area
affected by its bombing either

Correct. Only about 1 million people.




but the target at Hiroshima was the military HQ and there
were at least 30,000 soldiers in the area.

43,000 Japanese soldiers (20,000 of which were killed by the bomb).

I never saw figures for injuries, but I imagine a lot of the rest had
some serious injuries.




Actually the arms plant was the target.

It was the target the pilot was aiming for because it was all he could
see. But the target he was supposed to be hitting at Nagasaki was the
Mitsubishi Shipyards.




In neither case were half the population killed as you asserted

Not half population of the cities. But half the population in the
areas affected by the bombs.

"hiroshima facts" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


I dont think all the population of Tokyo were in the area
affected by its bombing either

Correct. Only about 1 million people.



Cite please, a million people were left homeless but the
main damage mechanism in Tokyo as at Dresden,
Hamburg and Hiroshima was the firestorm that
developed. There was no firestorm in the case
of Nagasaki.



but the target at Hiroshima was the military HQ and there
were at least 30,000 soldiers in the area.

43,000 Japanese soldiers (20,000 of which were killed by the bomb).

I never saw figures for injuries, but I imagine a lot of the rest had
some serious injuries.




Actually the arms plant was the target.

It was the target the pilot was aiming for because it was all he could
see. But the target he was supposed to be hitting at Nagasaki was the
Mitsubishi Shipyards.


Not according to the crew who dropped it

Quote
We started an approach [to Nagasaki]," Olivi said, "but Beahan couldn't see
the target area [in the city east of the harbor]. Van Pelt, the navigator,
was checking by radar to make sure we had the right city, and it looked like
we would be dropping the bomb automatically by radar. At the last few
seconds of the bomb run, Beahan yelled into his mike, 'I've got a hole! I
can see it! I can see the target!' Apparently, he had spotted an opening in
the clouds only 20 seconds before releasing the bomb."
In his debriefing later, Beahan told Tibbets, "I saw my aiming point; there
was no problem about it. I got the cross hairs on it; I'd killed my rate;
I'd killed my drift. The bomb had to go."

/Quote



In neither case were half the population killed as you asserted

Not half population of the cities. But half the population in the
areas affected by the bombs.

Incorrect, 67% of the buildings in Hiroshima were destroyed
or severely damaged. This means at least 2/3rds of the city
was affected by the bomb

In the case of Nagasaki 40% of the cities buildings were
either totally or partly destroyed.

source

The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
by The Manhattan Engineer District, June 29, 1946

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"hiroshima facts" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


I dont think all the population of Tokyo were in the area
affected by its bombing either


Correct. Only about 1 million people.


Cite please, a million people were left homeless but the
main damage mechanism in Tokyo as at Dresden,
Hamburg and Hiroshima was the firestorm that
developed. There was no firestorm in the case
of Nagasaki.

I think the estimate was just based on the 1 million homeless number,
but I didn't see any explanation.

I'll accept 7-8% as valid.




Actually the arms plant was the target.

It was the target the pilot was aiming for because it was all he could
see. But the target he was supposed to be hitting at Nagasaki was the
Mitsubishi Shipyards.


Not according to the crew who dropped it

Quote
We started an approach [to Nagasaki]," Olivi said, "but Beahan couldn't see
the target area [in the city east of the harbor]. Van Pelt, the navigator,
was checking by radar to make sure we had the right city, and it looked like
we would be dropping the bomb automatically by radar. At the last few
seconds of the bomb run, Beahan yelled into his mike, 'I've got a hole! I
can see it! I can see the target!' Apparently, he had spotted an opening in
the clouds only 20 seconds before releasing the bomb."
In his debriefing later, Beahan told Tibbets, "I saw my aiming point; there
was no problem about it. I got the cross hairs on it; I'd killed my rate;
I'd killed my drift. The bomb had to go."

/Quote


They seemed to be stretching the truth a bit for the public.

There are some links here that mention the shipyards being the
intended target:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=na...h i+shipyards

They are lucky it worked out OK in the end, otherwise they might have
ended up in front of a court marshal for it.

They were also forbidden to use radar guidance.

It seems like I heard somewhere that they broke the rules because they
did not want to have to land with the bomb still in the bay (although
I would think any crash violent enough to make the bomb fizzle would
already be one with no survivors).




In neither case were half the population killed as you asserted

Not half population of the cities. But half the population in the
areas affected by the bombs.

Incorrect, 67% of the buildings in Hiroshima were destroyed
or severely damaged. This means at least 2/3rds of the city
was affected by the bomb

But what percentage of the population within that 2/3 was killed?

"hiroshima facts" wrote in message
m...


snip


Cite please, a million people were left homeless but the
main damage mechanism in Tokyo as at Dresden,
Hamburg and Hiroshima was the firestorm that
developed. There was no firestorm in the case
of Nagasaki.

I think the estimate was just based on the 1 million homeless number,
but I didn't see any explanation.


Then its erroneous as conventional bombing doesnt render all houses
in an area uninhabitable while not touching those around it. Its
likely that many houses were destroyed by the fires started
and were untouched by bombs. In such a situation the population
would be able to flee.

I'll accept 7-8% as valid.


Thats scarcel accurate given the




Actually the arms plant was the target.

It was the target the pilot was aiming for because it was all he could
see. But the target he was supposed to be hitting at Nagasaki was the
Mitsubishi Shipyards.


Not according to the crew who dropped it

Quote
We started an approach [to Nagasaki]," Olivi said, "but Beahan couldn't
see
the target area [in the city east of the harbor]. Van Pelt, the
navigator,
was checking by radar to make sure we had the right city, and it looked
like
we would be dropping the bomb automatically by radar. At the last few
seconds of the bomb run, Beahan yelled into his mike, 'I've got a hole!
I
can see it! I can see the target!' Apparently, he had spotted an opening
in
the clouds only 20 seconds before releasing the bomb."
In his debriefing later, Beahan told Tibbets, "I saw my aiming point;
there
was no problem about it. I got the cross hairs on it; I'd killed my
rate;
I'd killed my drift. The bomb had to go."

/Quote


They seemed to be stretching the truth a bit for the public.


No its what they said at their debriefing, at the time this was definitely
NOT for public consumption

There are some links here that mention the shipyards being the
intended target:


http://www.google.com/search?as_q=na...h i+shipyards


I prefer to take the word of the men who flew the
mission and those that briefed them.

They are lucky it worked out OK in the end, otherwise they might have
ended up in front of a court marshal for it.

They were also forbidden to use radar guidance.


Not quite, they were instructed not to BOMB using radar,
the drop was made using the Norden visual bombsight


It seems like I heard somewhere that they broke the rules because they
did not want to have to land with the bomb still in the bay (although
I would think any crash violent enough to make the bomb fizzle would
already be one with no survivors).


They considered the possibility and you seem to be forrgetting that
landing with an armed weapon of any sort is risky let alone
a nuclear weapon with a barometric fuze.




In neither case were half the population killed as you asserted

Not half population of the cities. But half the population in the
areas affected by the bombs.

Incorrect, 67% of the buildings in Hiroshima were destroyed
or severely damaged. This means at least 2/3rds of the city
was affected by the bomb

But what percentage of the population within that 2/3 was killed?

I have already pointed you to the source of the post war survey - go look.

Keith

I don't think all 255,000 people were in the area affected by the
A-bomb, though.

As posted elsewhe this is the whole point! The nuclear blast wastes
most of its power killing the same people over and over again.

all the best -- Dan Ford
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