Is a 45 year old student pilot considered 'youth'?

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 12:37:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
"Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my local commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50 and instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about a 15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider rental and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of flying. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many folks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem hindering the growth and sustainability of this sport.

Commercial operations obviously bring a lot of value to the sport, but that is a one-sided view. I know personally of four clubs in the USA that offer much more affordable soaring. In each case there is significant philanthropy, a few big gifts and many smaller ones, and considerable volunteer contributions of time. It adds up over the years and as a relative newcomer to the sport I have been the beneficiary. (Thanks BTW!) All of these clubs have a pretty good (albeit aging) fleet of gliders as well. Three of the airports have subsidized programs for youngsters. These are not exclusive 'yacht clubs'.

I agree that "learning" to fly gliders is quite expensive. I try to assure
my students that there is "light at the end of the tunnel."

As you get better at the sport, the price goes way down.

Clubs are typically in the $500 to $1000 per year cost range.

The cost of ownership (individual or with partner) of a modest glider is
not much more that that......(I'm leaving out the cost of the glider itself
figuring the glider can most likely be sold at any time for your purchase
price)

You soon learn to "choose your days" ... don't fly on days that are going
to be sleigh rides...

Once you learn to find thermals during tow, you can usually release at
2000' or less, saving $10 or more per tow. (Clubs typically offer tows for
about 1/2 the price of commercial operators, but clubs with tow planes
typically have higher dues..it is a wash....unless if you fly a lot, then a
towing club is a big cost advantage.

Once you start mastering thermalling, and then x country...flights of 3
hours become "normal" and many flights will be 6 or even 8 hours. Flying at
a ridge location, you can literally fly all day long if you so desire.
(Obviously the longer the flight, the lower the cost per hour.)

Now if you fly say, every other week.... you can do the math and find that
the cost drops to under $50 per hour...probably more like $25.

Suddenly, gliding becomes cheaper than Golf, or Skiing, or drinking at the
bar, etc!

I've had years where gliding cost me around to $10 per hour!!!

Cookie





At 17:37 23 February 2013, wrote:
"Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my
loca=
l commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50
and=
instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about
a
=
15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider
rental=
and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of
flyin=
g. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many
fo=
lks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem
hinder=
ing the growth and sustainability of this sport.

On 2/23/2013 12:49 AM, GM wrote:
.. [winch] ...climb angles of 40deg+, .......

I used to say that too... and then I did the math. It's only your *deck
angle*, with respect to the horizon that is 40+ degrees. Assuming that
your launch height is about 1/3 of your cable length, that comes out to
an average climb angle of about 19 degrees, unfortunately.

Tony

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 7:57:46 PM UTC-7, Tony V wrote:
On 2/23/2013 12:49 AM, GM wrote:

.. [winch] ...climb angles of 40deg+, .......



I used to say that too... and then I did the math. It's only your *deck

angle*, with respect to the horizon that is 40+ degrees. Assuming that

your launch height is about 1/3 of your cable length, that comes out to

an average climb angle of about 19 degrees, unfortunately.



Tony

Tony, I assure you GM has done the math and his numbers are correct. With a rope tension equal to the glider's weight, the max climb angle will be 45 degrees - that's just how the math works out.

Old winches launching sub-30:1 gliders don't get this performance but the powerful new winches launching higher performance gliders do.

On Friday, February 22, 2013 7:39:56 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
What are the issues that keep soaring from training and retaining 'older youth'?



There's a lot of talk about recruiting 'youth' into soaring. Does RAS/SSA put 45+ y.o. students in the youth category? Who exactly are we trying to recruit?



Today's 45+ y.o.s are the ones who will be flying steadily for the next 25 years, say until 2038. Most of today's 20 year old pilots will quit flying by 30 (if not 25) due to money and the distractions of career, mortgage, and family. Some of them will start to fly again around 2038, when I'm worn out.



The issues:



1)Older youth are slower learners, so it is hard for a middle age pilot to get enough training and progress at an acceptable pace in the current system. It took me way too many seasons to get my rating. I saw a lot of other middle age students get discouraged and give up. Combination of bad weather, shortage of CFI-Gs, haphazard training, and my slow learning. It's highly improbable that I would persist to this point.



2)This is related to #1. The slow learning of older students puts a burden on volunteer CFI-Gs. The CFI-G gets tired of teaching that slower learner, the student picks up on that subliminally and quits. It is just taking too long and that CFI-G is understandably cranky about it. Worse case, the CFIG pushes the student to take the flight test before the student is really ready (and they pass). Getting the rating does not make you a good and safe pilot.



3)The shortage of modern club gliders. Okay. So I have my rating. Now how do I get my Silver Badge? Fortunate for me, I found a club that has a PW-6 and I can do some XC tandem flights with some expert older XC pilots, and being advanced in years, they like to have a backup pilot in the cockpit. It's fun. WIN WIN. And I have a decent glider to solo. The appeal of doing XC training in a 2-33 is absolute ZERO. Too uncomfortable. No 2-place modern club gliders? Time to quit and take up sailing.



Action Items:



1)Shorten the duration of the training period for middle age students. Train smarter. Be more systematic. Based on my student experience, glider training is haphazard. The reluctance of CFI-G to exploit Condor to speed up the initial phase of training baffles me. Old dogs, new trick maybe. I guess Condor is not so much fun for the CFI-G. So let's train CFI-Gs to use Condor as a tool. You can start to train on Condor in January and students will have a leg up once the snow melts.



2)Invest in more 2-place modern gliders. Most glider pilots have capital (or they would have taken up bird watching instead). If half of them would sign $2-3000 promissory notes, we could update the training fleet tomorrow. I mean... what do you earn on your CDs? .2%? My glider club pays me 3% on the promissory note that I signed and that helps finance our new glider, AND I get to fly a nice new glider! Huge ROI. Stop flapping the jaws and step up gentlemen! Clubs did this back in the day and bought the 2-33 fleet. Inflation adjusted, it is the same money. Why are the purse strings held tighter today? New Butterfly Vario or Promissory Note? Your choice.



Bonus Step:

Start launching with a winch. That will pull in, train and retain the 'young Youth' pilots. It will probably shorten the calendar duration of everyone's training because more flights will get launched on Saturday afternoon.