Almost perfect payout winch launch.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:46:40 AM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
If we had slowed down a little, and tightened up the tension a bit, we could have added a couple hundred more feet? What do you think about the "Payout Winch"?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5WDiHHgua8



Boggs

How long is the runway? With a well-built conventional winch, you can typically achieve a release height of 45-50% of the line length.

Uli
Winchmeister of the Carolina Soaring Assoc.

My limited experience with launching a hang glider via a payout winch was that we only got about 1/3 of the runway length and that was with good headwind. About 900ft on a 2800ft or so runway.

Most issues and accidents with hang gliders and payout winches happen due to "lockout" when you get turned and can't recover. Without control surfaces it gets bad in a hurry.

Vehicle speeds were about the same as with a static line. 20-30mph depending on the headwind.

The launch is crazy exciting though. You're laying in your harness, on the back of a pickup racing down a runway/road. At 35mph airspeed or so (I don't remember specifics) you hit a release and pop off the truck instantly to about 20 ft, then slowly start winding out. Just like a glider ground launch, once high enough you maximize your climb angle.

When you hit thermals, the tension was pretty constant so you just surged higher as the drum let more line out.

We are working on getting our glider winch going. I will let you know how I think they compare once we have our ducks in a row and are launching with it.

Morgan

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 9:52:21 AM UTC-7, GM wrote:
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 12:46:40 AM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:

If we had slowed down a little, and tightened up the tension a bit, we could have added a couple hundred more feet? What do you think about the "Payout Winch"?







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5WDiHHgua8







Boggs



How long is the runway? With a well-built conventional winch, you can typically achieve a release height of 45-50% of the line length.



Uli

Winchmeister of the Carolina Soaring Assoc.

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:07:58 AM UTC-6, Morgan wrote:

We are working on getting our glider winch going. I will let you know how I think they compare once we have our ducks in a row and are launching with it.

Morgan

As part of "getting your ducks in a row" please plan on some formal winch training.

At 17:27 07 May 2013, Bill D wrote:
On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:07:58 AM UTC-6, Morgan wrote:

We are working on getting our glider winch going. I will let you know
how I think they compare once we have our ducks in a row and are
launching
with it.

Morgan

As part of "getting your ducks in a row" please plan on some formal winch
training.

AMEN to that, not only have I been on the receiving end of 10000 lauches
but I have probably done even more as a winch driver.
I have driven converted WW2 balloon wiches, converted bus, rover car and
combine harvester winches and others up to the Munster Van Gelder and
Skylaunch. They are all inherently hazardous but with properly trained
drivers and correct procedures the risks can be minimised. The key is the
simpler the better.
A few dollars spent in getting the expertise and proper training will save
money and more importantly lives.
Even with the expertise we have over here we still get caught out from time
to time and we are still learning, well some of us are.

On May 7, 10:27*am, Bill D wrote:
We are working on getting our glider winch going. *I will let you know how I think they compare once we have our ducks in a row and are launching with it.
As part of "getting your ducks in a row" please plan on some formal winch training.

We have several members (including instructors) with winch launching
experience AND are planning on bringing in a winch-current CFI-G.

Bart

Just a few notes on Gary's Payout winch System.

I have done Winch Launches, Auto Tows and have had the privilege of launching with Gary's payout winch.

It has been a few years since I have launched with it, and it appears Gary has perfected the technique and winch some since I have used it. He has been using the system for quite a few years now. He was using an electric rewinder and less payout at the start of the tow when I did it. But he may have modified the technique from what I am going to describe.

From the glider end when I was towing with it seems like a normal Auto Tow to start with, However once nearing the top of the climb for the rope he had payed out, he would start paying out more rope. This was easy to determine from the glider end and we just lowered the nose to maintain airspeed while he payed out more rope. He would then increase the tension and we would go back into a steep climb.

I was doing it on a very long dry lake, but was getting 2200 feet or more on a tow. I am sure we could have gone higher if we wanted to. It is a bit different in that it is a stepped climb, as opposed to the constant climb you get with an auto tow or winch launch, but still very easy do.

Some advantages of the system are that...
it probably cost 1/10 what a winch would cost
It is entirely portable, no equipment is left on the field or needs to be setup
It retrieves the rope and resets almost as quickly as you can return to the staging area.

I am sure he has a guillotine in the system, I probably wouldn't have towed with it if he didn't.

Since I haven't used it on a shorter runway, I can't comment on how it compares to an auto tow for launch height.

The initial climb is identical to an auto tow and will get the glider high enough for a 180 or even a 360 degree turn back to the runway typically before he starts paying out line.

Thanks Gary, I enjoyed towing behind your system, Perhaps will do it again someday.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

I replaced the electric retrieve motor with a 6hp Honda. The electric just didn't have enough poop to pull the chute back well. We've been using this payout winch for years now, and it works very well. It is simple and safe.. We are continuing to improve our technique tho. We used to start with the brake set, and accelerate the truck and glider together. But we changed that to accelerating the truck with the brake off, and the line paying out, and after the truck is up to speed, we then set the brake to the proper tension. This worked much better. The glider gets up to flying speed, and off the ground, much quicker, and therefor has control sooner, and gets higher.
The payout winch has several advantages over a conventional winch or auto tow in that when the glider hits lift, the line simply pays out faster. We almost never have any rope breaks because the tension on the brake is never supposed to be set above the breaking strength of the weak link.

It's too bad that some people, that have no idea what we are doing, immediately label it as bad and dangerous. It must be nice to be such a know it all, eh? I figured that it would bring out some of the idiots here when I posted the video. It's just so easy to be a dick online these days, isn't it?

Boggs

On Wednesday, May 8, 2013 8:53:23 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
I replaced the electric retrieve motor with a 6hp Honda. The electric just didn't have enough poop to pull the chute back well. We've been using this payout winch for years now, and it works very well. It is simple and safe. We are continuing to improve our technique tho. We used to start with the brake set, and accelerate the truck and glider together. But we changed that to accelerating the truck with the brake off, and the line paying out, and after the truck is up to speed, we then set the brake to the proper tension. This worked much better. The glider gets up to flying speed, and off the ground, much quicker, and therefor has control sooner, and gets higher.

The payout winch has several advantages over a conventional winch or auto tow in that when the glider hits lift, the line simply pays out faster. We almost never have any rope breaks because the tension on the brake is never supposed to be set above the breaking strength of the weak link.



It's too bad that some people, that have no idea what we are doing, immediately label it as bad and dangerous. It must be nice to be such a know it all, eh? I figured that it would bring out some of the idiots here when I posted the video. It's just so easy to be a dick online these days, isn't it?



Boggs

Gary,

How are you measuring rope tension?

How are you measuring rope tension?

All we have is a pressure gauge on the hydraulics of the disc brake.
A tentiometer would be better, but we are trying to KISS.

Boggs

One of the most important things we teach all glider pilots is that it is there responsibility to keep themselves safe at all times, no matter what happens with the launch vehicle, be it winch, or aerotow. At no time should the pilot put himself in a position that he can't recover from in the event of a launch failure. That means you don't climb until you have sufficient airspeed, you limit the climb angle below 200', you abort the tow with enough runway to land straight ahead if you aren't climbing. No matter what happens to the launch vehicle, it is up to the glider pilot to keep himself in a safe place at all times, with safe options. Maybe you guys train differently? Even if my truck blew up, it just means the glider doesn't get as high as he would have. If the brake fails, it just means the glider doesn't get as high as he might. If my truck fails to get up to speed, the truck goes to the left and the glider lands straight ahead. Our payout system has been very dependable, but we train for launch failures just the same. Contrary to your assumptions, our operation is innovative, simple, safe, and really fun, and it doesn't cost a boat load of money.

Boggs