Uncle Fuzzies take on Self Launchers

Uncle Fuzzy wrote, On 8/20/2013 7:35 PM:
My take on self-launchers launchers

… is really pretty simple. A self launcher means you can launch
whether there’s a tow plane or not. Period. For me, that would mean
I could launch from Jean, land somewhere, make camp (I love ‘ramp
camping’), and launch the next day and fly back (conditions, skills,
etc. permitting.) Essentially equivalent to having a tug available
for the next day at any field. If tugs were always available, I
wouldn’t have any use for a self launcher.

You understand one half of the attraction of a self-launcher, but like
many people, miss the other half: you can take risks with the lift, and
if you guess wrong and the lift isn't there, you can start the motor,
get to the next lift, and continue the flight. The ability to explore
without the consequences of a landout and a potentially long retrieve
are just as valuable as avoiding the launch line or flying from an
airport that doesn't have a towplane.

I'm sorry you will have money left over at the end of your "final
glide", a fate I am trying to avoid. It's even harder to judge that
"glide" than one in a glider, and you don't get to practice it, either.

Possibly, you could use some of the money to start a partnership in a
DG1000 or other excellent two seater, like the DG1000 that operates at
Ephrata, WA. You will have partners to fly with, they will be introduced
to cross-country flying, and will pass that on as they become
proficient. It's well equipped, kept assembled and covered so it's ready
to in moments, and seems to be fulfilling the mission envisioned by the
original owner.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

This is an excellent idea. Jim, get a nice 2 seater and train pilots to fly cross country. You actually been doing it all along but you can do it in a much nicer glider. And hopefully for many more years than you think.
Eric, your take on the advantages of self launchers is exactly what I would do if I had one, explore as much as I could and fly from multiple places, but from some reason only a small percentage of motorglider pilots I know fly like this. The rest constrain themselves as if it was a pure glider. Or perhaps they are so good that they hardly need to relight anyway. hmm...

Ramy

Ramy wrote, On 8/20/2013 9:04 PM:
This is an excellent idea. Jim, get a nice 2 seater and train pilots
to fly cross country. You actually been doing it all along but you
can do it in a much nicer glider. And hopefully for many more years
than you think. Eric, your take on the advantages of self launchers
is exactly what I would do if I had one, explore as much as I could
and fly from multiple places, but from some reason only a small
percentage of motorglider pilots I know fly like this. The rest
constrain themselves as if it was a pure glider. Or perhaps they are
so good that they hardly need to relight anyway. hmm...

Your observations are the same as mine. I average about 10 restarts
during my 40 to 50 flights a year. That's about right, I think, for
someone of my experience. Most motorglider pilots don't get near that
20% rate, however. Mostly, I think, it's because so many of them flew
towed gliders for a long time, and flew in a culture that did not
respect landouts, but usually considered landing out as evidence the
pilot failed.

I can hardly wait for someone like Tony to get a motorglider. I'm
thinking we'll see a 50% restart rate, but the times he doesn't will be
magnificent flights!

My next glider will have "The road less traveled" written on the side of
it, and I expect my restart rate will climb to 30% or more.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

At 03:37 21 August 2013, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Uncle Fuzzy wrote, On 8/20/2013 7:35 PM:
My take on self-launchers launchers

� is really pretty simple. A self launcher means you can
launch
whether there�s a tow plane or not. Period. For me, that
would mean
I could launch from Jean, land somewhere, make camp (I love
�ramp
camping�), and launch the next day and fly back (conditions,
skills,
etc. permitting.) Essentially equivalent to having a tug
available
for the next day at any field. If tugs were always available, I
wouldn�t have any use for a self launcher.

You understand one half of the attraction of a self-launcher, but
like
many people, miss the other half: you can take risks with the
lift, and
if you guess wrong and the lift isn't there, you can start the
motor,
get to the next lift, and continue the flight. The ability to explore
without the consequences of a landout and a potentially long
retrieve
are just as valuable as avoiding the launch line or flying from an
airport that doesn't have a towplane.

I'm sorry you will have money left over at the end of your "final
glide", a fate I am trying to avoid. It's even harder to judge that
"glide" than one in a glider, and you don't get to practice it,
either.

Possibly, you could use some of the money to start a partnership
in a
DG1000 or other excellent two seater, like the DG1000 that
operates at
Ephrata, WA. You will have partners to fly with, they will be
introduced
to cross-country flying, and will pass that on as they become
proficient. It's well equipped, kept assembled and covered so it's
ready
to in moments, and seems to be fulfilling the mission envisioned
by the
original owner.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us"
to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS,
Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl


Talking about motor gliders with extending masts and gas
engines: all the advantages seem (at least partially) offset by
corresponding disadvantages, either physical or psychological. For
example, the major convenience of not needing a towplane is
partially offset by the usually-greater difficulty and risk of self
launching. When it comes to cross-country flying, a large fraction
(99%?) of field landings are eliminated with a motor glider, but the
"worry element" always remains (motors don't always start, and a
field landing in a motor glider will be more difficult and risky). Overall,
my experience is that I prefer my motor glider, however
the advantages are not as great as I had imagined.

A few years ago, I came across an Auxiliary Sailplane Association fly-in somewhere out west. The ramp was full of pilots working on engines - welding silencers, cleaning carburetors, fixing electronics, etc. One guy was replacing instruments in his panel that had fallen out through engine vibration!

It reminder me more of a rally of mid-century British sports cars than a glider meet. I think I'll stick with having the engine at the end of a 200-foot rope.

Mike

Mike the Strike wrote, On 8/22/2013 1:48 PM:
A few years ago, I came across an Auxiliary Sailplane Association
fly-in somewhere out west. The ramp was full of pilots working on
engines - welding silencers, cleaning carburetors, fixing
electronics, etc. One guy was replacing instruments in his panel
that had fallen out through engine vibration!

It reminder me more of a rally of mid-century British sports cars
than a glider meet. I think I'll stick with having the engine at the
end of a 200-foot rope.

I've been to 6 or 7 of those ASA events at Parowan, and "full" is a
misleading overstatement. It's very few at most, and hardly anyone
misses a day of flying for those reasons. You can always take a tow and
work the problem later, if nothing else. There are usually more
irritated people in line for the towplane waiting their turn as the day
slips by. Six or seven motorgliders can launch in the time it takes to
put one towed glider in the air.

It is true a motorglider requires much more maintenance than an
unpowered glider, but most of it can be done when there is no soaring to
do. As a former partner in a towplane for our club, I know I spent more
time working on that towplane than I have on my motorglider, even though
there were 5 partners and a mechanic involved. Keeping it going was as
hard as the British sports cars I used to own.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On 23/08/2013 06:48, Mike the Strike wrote:
A few years ago, I came across an Auxiliary Sailplane Association
fly-in somewhere out west. The ramp was full of pilots working on
engines - welding silencers, cleaning carburetors, fixing
electronics, etc. One guy was replacing instruments in his panel
that had fallen out through engine vibration!

It reminder me more of a rally of mid-century British sports cars
than a glider meet. I think I'll stick with having the engine at the
end of a 200-foot rope.

Mike

That's a very good analogy. The level of engineering involved is about
the same and for the same reason. Better would be too expensive to
sell. They both have to adapt stuff designed for a different use. MG
tail lights and back axles, for example. A pump in my refuelling system
is from a VW Polo windscreen washer.

Further, all 2-stroke self-launcher engines are the same. They're
reliable engines as engines - but vibration kills everything attached to
it. Electrical systems, fuel systems, instrument sensors, instruments,
wiring, airframes, everything.

Mine even had an AD because vibration was rattling apart the crankshaft
from the starter ring. Why wasn't it a single piece design? That would
have been too expensive.

Like SOF, I look forward to the battery technology which will make
electric viable - unless I buy a Schleicher Wankel first.

GC

On Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:33:40 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:

Like SOF, I look forward to the battery technology which will make
electric viable - unless I buy a Schleicher Wankel first.

There was a prototype hybrid self-launcher shown last summer in Europe (reported in Gliding International). The prop and electric motor is in the nose, a diesel generator is mounted near the CG. No mast. Smaller battery pack. Less volatile fuel.

Do any self-launchers have the option to dump fuel before "landing rough"?

son_of_flubber wrote, On 8/22/2013 6:57 PM:
On Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:33:40 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:

Like SOF, I look forward to the battery technology which will make
electric viable - unless I buy a Schleicher Wankel first.

There was a prototype hybrid self-launcher shown last summer in
Europe (reported in Gliding International). The prop and electric
motor is in the nose, a diesel generator is mounted near the CG. No
mast. Smaller battery pack. Less volatile fuel.

Do any self-launchers have the option to dump fuel before "landing
rough"?

I don't know of any. I carry 4 gallons at most, and that's only 25
pounds, so weight isn't an issue; further, it's tucked up in the gear
well, about as safe as it can get. I'm not aware of any incidents
involving the fuel in an accident.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:48:04 PM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
A few years ago, I came across an Auxiliary Sailplane Association fly-in somewhere out west. The ramp was full of pilots working on engines - welding silencers, cleaning carburetors, fixing electronics, etc. One guy was replacing instruments in his panel that had fallen out through engine vibration!



It reminder me more of a rally of mid-century British sports cars than a glider meet. I think I'll stick with having the engine at the end of a 200-foot rope.



Mike

I have attended most of the Parowan meets and that is a gross overstatement of actual maintenance record of motorgliders. And one needs to compare that to not being able to get a tow either because the tow plane has its own mechanical breakdown or no tow pilots are available that weekend or there is a 2-3 hour wait in the tow line on a great day.
When you have a MG you can decide when and where you are going to launch (yes, you don't have to go to an airport that has tows!).

Tom