2009 Lawsuit

On Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:03:17 AM UTC-7, Kevin Christner wrote:
On Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:31:18 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Not looking to open old wounds. One question.



Was the case against Eastern Sailplane ( Tim Donovan 2009 ASG-29 accident) successful?







Rick Lake



Tom Kelley posted a link to some court proceedings that appears to have been deleted by google groups (i.e. someone clicking "abusive post.")



Per the court proceedings I found the contentions we



1) The wing main pins were defective and were rusting (two sets)

2) The plane enters an unrecoverable spiral dive after entering a spin (problem with all ships of model)



Can any ASG-29 drivers comment?

My first post I deleted because of my typing skills. #711.

On Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:31:18 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Not looking to open old wounds. One question.

Was the case against Eastern Sailplane ( Tim Donovan 2009 ASG-29 accident) successful?



Rick Lake

I just finished reading the tox- report. Looks to me like this lawsuit will succeed when pigs fly. What was the pilot thinking with that stuff circulating thru his system.

On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 8:53:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:31:18 PM UTC-8, wrote:

Not looking to open old wounds. One question.



Was the case against Eastern Sailplane ( Tim Donovan 2009 ASG-29 accident) successful?







Rick Lake



I just finished reading the tox- report. Looks to me like this lawsuit will succeed when pigs fly. What was the pilot thinking with that stuff circulating thru his system.

Do you have a url for that report? Sounds like it could make for interesting / informative reading.

On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 8:53:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:31:18 PM UTC-8, wrote:

Not looking to open old wounds. One question.



Was the case against Eastern Sailplane ( Tim Donovan 2009 ASG-29 accident) successful?







Rick Lake



I just finished reading the tox- report. Looks to me like this lawsuit will succeed when pigs fly. What was the pilot thinking with that stuff circulating thru his system.

Well, ya better duck, cause pigs are now flying and they do sh++t. Yes, it was dropped against the Dealer, but best to remember that attorney fees can be very expensive. Settlement out of court for...1.1m US bucks.

I was their. I spoke with Tim each morning before we flew. Our talk time each morning was around 10 minutes and included where I had my cg at. We also discussed other topics. He also flew out from the East Coast, in his complex twin turbo prop Cessna, as a single pilot. He shared with me that he had been spinning the 29 numerous times and was comfortable doing so. Tim never appeared impaired to me during this time.
When the accident happened, I was very close by and entering a thermal. I saw something as I started to turn. About that time, the pilot on top of Tim began calling over his radio to no avail. When I came around, it was over.. I called contest ground, but only the tow pilot heard me. She then relayed the information. I requested EMT and an air rescue. I was informed they would be on their way to the crash site. I did a roll call over the air, everyone responded except for Tim.
I was planning on landing, but when told they were on their way, I decided it was best to stay in the air.
Several hours later, a motor glider pilot radio that he was still over the area and when was the EMT planning on getting their. I was shocked to hear this and headed back to the airport. I flew back so fast I almost landed out.
The crash impacted so hard, the pieces were very, very small. So small some things could not be decided on with any certain. Such as flap handle position, rudder pedal location, etc.
It may be best to think here for a moment. The pilot on top stated that he saw no control movement. He spoke with me when we were back on the ramp. Both pilots spoke with me. But no control movements were seen. Both have been around for sometime and are very respected, no less than any of us.

This was an accident and we shall never have all the facts. With well over 1100 hours in my 29, mine has always behaved showing no adverse flight conditions. Out of all the 29 pilots I know, no one reports any adverse flight conditions.

We also all know its best not to assume anything in aviation.

I won't respond anymore to this thread, as I wish for Tim to RIP.

Best regards, #711.

Well, ya better duck, cause pigs are now flying and they do sh++t. Yes, it was dropped against the Dealer, but best to remember that attorney fees can be very expensive. Settlement out of court for...1.1m US bucks.

While not as sad as seeing a good friend lose his life, this is pretty sad. Unfortunately in today's litigious environment, it probably made sense, as trial costs could have run far higher.

2C

BobW:

Assuming a condition where the C of G is out of limits, how would that affect the flight characteristics in a way that would result in the accident as it played out (unintentional stall-spin transforming into a spiral dive which then wound up tight enough to generate g-forces sufficiently high so as to break the wings)? - I'm currently going through the reference material I have on hand as I found, to my embarrassment, that I wasn't at all certain about the various effects of C of G on flight characteristics.

I assume that only a too far aft C of G could be a problem in this case. An aft C of G makes a stall-spin easier to get into and can result in the spin being unrecoverable in extreme situations correct? I would think that an aft C of G would also make it easier to induce positive g's with the elevator and would make the elevator control lighter and "twitchier" making it easier to overstress the glider during the subsequent spiral. I can't see how the C of G would lead to the spiral dive being unrecoverable though.

I recall a Nimbus 4DM accident in which it was suggested that after a certain number of turns in a spiral dive when g forces and airspeed had built up high enough that it would be impossible to roll level and recover - I wonder if the lawsuit was suggesting something similar about the 29? It doesn't seem too likely that that would be the case though.

Not knowing the C of G position for sure, especially in a glider which lets you alter wing loading and tail weight to the degree a modern competition ship would seem to be a prerequisite for flight to me. Even my old 15b (without ballast bags) has been up on the scales, leveled and weighed during an annual just to put my mind at ease. (it was imported from Germany to Canada in 1998 and the German records indicate that it was reweighed every 48 months when it was there!)

Many flight manuals of newer gliders say that a spin will turn in to a spiral dive on its own after a few turns. Spin and spiral dive recovery are, of course, quite different. If you've lost situational awareness enough to inadvertently spin, not noticing the subtle transition from spin to spiral dive might happen too. Also, reading flight manuals, a few of them recommend somewhat different recovery than "standard" that we were all taught.

This has little to do with speculation about this accident, but it's an interesting related fact. Reading the flight manual about spins is a useful winter pastime.

John Cochrane

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:28:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Many flight manuals of newer gliders say that a spin will turn
in to a spiral dive on its own after a few turns.
Spin and spiral dive recovery are, of course, quite different.

Please note this probably has NOTHING to do with Tim's accident:
Experienced pilots have become confused and thought they were
in a spin when in fact they were in a spiral dive.
IIRC a prominent example was the crash of an Eta during
a spin test...

Quick:
- how do you tell the difference?
- recovery technique?

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:28:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Many flight manuals of newer gliders say that a spin will turn in to a spiral dive on its own after a few turns. Spin and spiral dive recovery are, of course, quite different. If you've lost situational awareness enough to inadvertently spin, not noticing the subtle transition from spin to spiral dive might happen too. Also, reading flight manuals, a few of them recommend somewhat different recovery than "standard" that we were all taught. This has little to do with speculation about this accident, but it's an interesting related fact. Reading the flight manual about spins is a useful winter pastime. John Cochrane

Also worth noting is that T tail sailplanes commonly do surprising(to those not familiar)things in pitch during spin recovery. Commonly, as the stick is moved forward to unstall, the nose will pitch down, followed by pitching up a bit as the horizontal tail goes through the wake, followed again by pitch down(sometimes a LOT) as the tail comes out of the wake and becomes more effective pushing the nose way down. This easily leads to a very low nose with speed building at a very high rate. Add to this the autorotation associated with the spin entry and you have a very disorienting situation. You are in a high speed spiral before you know it.
This is why many flight manuals, and I directly quote the ASW-27 manual, say to apply opposite rudder and ease the stick forward until the rotation stops.
Jamming the stick full forward, as some pilots have been incorrectly taught, makes the end of the recovery much more difficult due to the behavior described above.
FWIW
UH

Jamming the stick full forward, as some pilots have been incorrectly taught, makes the end of the recovery much more difficult due to the behavior described above.

Really? Recovering from an inverted loop sounds easy...

John Cochrane