USAF(?) unit patch ID

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 13:07:40 GMT, Mike Williamson
wrote:

George wrote:
Mary Shafer wrote in message . ..

How about Holloman, not Davis-Monthan? There are F-117s at Holloman.

Mary


There's Air Force Spec Ops at Davis Monthan.

Well, there are the rescue squadrons here, but I don't recall ever
seeing that patch here. On another note, Air Force unit patches
are typically (almost universally, as far as I have seen) round,
rather than triangular. The AZ National Guard units have a non-round
patch, but that is in the shape of the State of Arizona.

I think that's because round patches are cheaper. I used to be on the
Dryden Exchange Committee, which ran our gift shop, and that was
something we suggested to patch designers to keep costs down.

I have a translation from rec.org.sca now. The "de multe nocte noli
rogare" is, approximately, "Don't ask what we do late at night" and
"classis caece" is "invisible or secret military group or fleet",
which may be "stealth squadron".

So I'm going with the 49th at Holloman AFB.

Mary

On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 00:04:46 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 17:05:14 -0400 Leigh
wrote in news:aSjcc.17163$of.7246@lakeread03 in
rec.org.sca:

Mary Shafer wrote:

There's a military patch that has many people in another newsgroup I
frequent quite curious. The standard of Latin scholarship is quite
low there, so I thought I ask here. You can see the patch at
http://www.darkstar.ukonline.co.uk/patch2.jpg.

Embroidered on the border of the black triangular patch is
CLASSIS CAECE (top point) DE MULTE NOCTE (bottom left)
NOLI ROGARE (bottom right), all readable in the usual orientation.
The phrases are separated by three ghosts or spooks, on the order of
the bullies in Casper, The center of the patch has a globe showing
the Americas with a star at about Holloman AFB (or any of a number of
other bases).

The combination of ghosts or spooks, the reference to "late at night"
(multe nocte), and the star have led me to believe that this patch is
that of some component of the 49th Air Wing, which flies the F-117 at
night from Holloman. I add this information purely as a guess, but
thought it might be helpful.

The spooks and CLASSIS CAECE 'invisible fleet' pretty
clearly mark it as the badge of some intelligence-oriented
unit, I should think.

I should mention that this may not be the best Latin in the world.

well, I'm not a latin scholar or anything (and the one online translation
website that did Latin English seems to have changed it's policy, *Sigh*),
but...

Looking at the patch I think you have to take DE MULTE NOCTE + NOLI ROGARE
as one unit which would be roughly:
'do not ask (what we do) in the course of/during many nights'

I think rather 'Do not ask (what we do) late at night'.

Best I could get out of CLASSIS CAECE was 'a hidden group of the military'
('Classis' being in one sense either 'group' or 'the armed forces' generally)

Mind you most of the words ending in 'e' should probably be ending in 'ae'
(at least when looking at the roots of the words that was the closest, at
least according to the interactive online latin dictionary I was looking
through).

Yes: where Classical Latin has ae, medieval Latin often
has just e, especially in inflexional endings.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

Mary Shafer wrote:

: Well, there are the rescue squadrons here, but I don't recall ever
: seeing that patch here. On another note, Air Force unit patches
: are typically (almost universally, as far as I have seen) round,
: rather than triangular. The AZ National Guard units have a non-round
: patch, but that is in the shape of the State of Arizona.
:
:I think that's because round patches are cheaper. I used to be on the
ryden Exchange Committee, which ran our gift shop, and that was
:something we suggested to patch designers to keep costs down.
:
:I have a translation from rec.org.sca now. The "de multe nocte noli
:rogare" is, approximately, "Don't ask what we do late at night" and
:"classis caece" is "invisible or secret military group or fleet",
:which may be "stealth squadron".
:
:So I'm going with the 49th at Holloman AFB.

Probably right. I never paid attention to what was on it, but I could
swear that at least one F-117 squadron has the triangular patches. I
happened to spend some time sitting in a large room where there were
also some green bags from a stealth squadron.

The Navy also uses at least some triangular patches, by the way. I
used to wear one.

--
"This is a war of the unknown warriors; but let all strive
without failing in faith or in duty...."

-- Winston Churchill

Mary Shafer wrote


So I'm going with the 49th at Holloman AFB.


I checked with the 49th this morning and they responded with
admirable speed, saying,


From:
To: "Allen Thomson"
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 12:14 PM
Subject: Request for help with patch identification

Mr. Thomson,

I forwarded the patch the the 49th FW history office.
They researched it and could not find it being associated
with the 49th FW at any time.

Many thanks,
XXXX
NCOIC, 49 FW / Public Affairs

(I've XXXXed out the name of the person who responded.)

Ed Rasimus wrote:

"George Z. Bush" wrote:

Just as a WAG, I think it's probably safe to say that whatever
its origins, they are more than likely NOT American.

I thought that initially as well,

BTW, just out of curiosity, honest question, what is there
about the patch that calls into doubt its American provenance?

(I have no idea where the thing came from, but can't see
anything that looks particularly non-USian.)

"Allen Thomson" wrote in message
om...
Ed Rasimus wrote:

"George Z. Bush" wrote:

Just as a WAG, I think it's probably safe to say that whatever
its origins, they are more than likely NOT American.

I thought that initially as well,

BTW, just out of curiosity, honest question, what is there
about the patch that calls into doubt its American provenance?

The three faces bear an amazing resemblence to Hitler?


(I have no idea where the thing came from, but can't see
anything that looks particularly non-USian.)

"Allen Thomson" wrote in message
om...
Ed Rasimus wrote:

"George Z. Bush" wrote:

Just as a WAG, I think it's probably safe to say that whatever
its origins, they are more than likely NOT American.

I thought that initially as well,

BTW, just out of curiosity, honest question, what is there
about the patch that calls into doubt its American provenance?

Let's turn the thing around. What is there about the patch that establishes its
American provenance? Whatever the language in use is, it doesn't even appear to
be English! Under those circumstances, why not doubt its origins?

Of course, I could be wrong, but that's what does it for me.

George Z.

(I have no idea where the thing came from, but can't see
anything that looks particularly non-USian.)

George Z. Bush wrote:
"Allen Thomson" wrote in message
om...

Ed Rasimus wrote:


"George Z. Bush" wrote:

Just as a WAG, I think it's probably safe to say that whatever
its origins, they are more than likely NOT American.

I thought that initially as well,

BTW, just out of curiosity, honest question, what is there
about the patch that calls into doubt its American provenance?


Let's turn the thing around. What is there about the patch that establishes its
American provenance?

The map is centred on North/Central america so it's not likely to be
European, African or Asian. There also looks to be a star on the map
which my (albeit limited) geography would place in the US.

Whatever the language in use is, it doesn't even appear to
be English!

You'd be betting on Latin America then ?

"George Z. Bush" wrote:

"Allen Thomson" wrote:

BTW, just out of curiosity, honest question, what is there
about the patch that calls into doubt its American provenance?

Let's turn the thing around. What is there about the patch that
establishes its American provenance? Whatever the language in use
is, it doesn't even appear to be English! Under those
circumstances, why not doubt its origins?

I've never been in a USAF wing with an emblem that didn't
display the wing motto in Latin. I've seen one or two
historical unit patches that had the motto in French
- but these units likely had originated there in WW I.
....NEVER in English.

Of course, I could be wrong, but that's what does it for me.

George Z.

(I have no idea where the thing came from, but can't see
anything that looks particularly non-USian.)

"Dweezil Dwarftosser" wrote in message
...
I've never been in a USAF wing with an emblem that didn't
display the wing motto in Latin. I've seen one or two
historical unit patches that had the motto in French
- but these units likely had originated there in WW I.
...NEVER in English.

Perhaps you haven't been in one but they exist. I've been in two at least,
44SMW motto was "Aggressor Beware" and I was in the 355th in the random
sampling below.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo...ges/0355wg.php

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo...ges/0004wg.php

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo...es/0036abw.php

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo...ges/0045sw.php

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo...ges/0052fw.php

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo...ges/0051fw.php

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroo...ges/0056fw.php

Regards,

Tex Houston

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:


I've never been in a USAF wing with an emblem that didn't
display the wing motto in Latin. I've seen one or two
historical unit patches that had the motto in French
- but these units likely had originated there in WW I.
....NEVER in English.

Well, I wish I could say the same, but the 355th Wing
at DM has their motto in English-- "Our Might Always,"
which might actually sound decent in Latin, but is
absolutely awful sitting there in English on the
patch...

Mike