Florida Mil Comms Loggings - Mon, 17 May 2004

Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message. The
feds can make their signals secure any old time they want to. If you
monitored GHFS (or whatever they renamed it) during the active part of
the war (before POTUS landed on the carrier and declared it over), you
heard plenty of scrambled signals. [ANDVT or something like that]

Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
homework. Any foreign spook who wants this info will not depend on the
net but will simply set up shop and do the job himself (or herself as
the case may be).

fudog50 wrote in message . ..
I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
applies to us military folks.
I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?
(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?
I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
current "OPSEC" guidelines.


On 21 May 2004 17:53:52 -0700, (miso) wrote:

It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".

As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.


(AllanStern) wrote in message ...
Monday, 17 May 2004
Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.

AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
[133.75]

N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
Patrick AFB.
9:17am: Departs Patrick.
2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
[269.3, 273.55]

MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 138.125]

SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
10:45am: RTBs to HST.
[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]

AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
[133.475, 132.15]

BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
Wing, Patrick AFB.
10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 307.1]

JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
[269.375]

PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
[269.375]

HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
12:30pm: Area transition.
[132.65]

VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]

VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
roll.
[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]

SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]

MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]

SHARK 89: C-130.
3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
[119.825]

LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
3:45pm: Area transition.
[133.475]

ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
5:27pm: Area transition.
Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
the action right from the beach in those days.

BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]

AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
Worldwide Military HF Communications
Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/m...age/index.html (My Freqs)
http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, miso
confessed the following:

Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message.

"Shack!"

Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
homework.

To piggyback "miso" further...

It's part of that old, "Loose lips sink ships" mantra...which
"fudog50" seems to be addressing when he asked:

I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?

Clearly the answer is an emphatic, "Well, duh!" Allan's posting is
after the fact...historical if you will. IOW he's not giving out
real-time or advance intelligence. Under your concern for OPSEC how
much time must pass before it would be permissible for Allan to post?

Again "fudog50" lamented:

(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)

Wrapping the flag AKA patriotism around your argument kinda gives you
some moral high ground. By your use of patriotism, folks opposed to
aspects of the Patriot Act or GWB/Cheney/Rove/Rumsfeld are
un-patriotic.

Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?

Awww come on now "fudog50" now you're just pandering. Put your
thinking cap on and contemplate probable targets and tactics. Think
those islamist ****s are going to go for a "fat juicy" civilian
airliner or an agile, mobile, and hostile military target?

Juvat

I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike?

It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they
want because they have inflated ego's and because they can.

And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever
understand.

I give up, keep posting MiLCOMS in Florida and y'aLL keep supporting
him, have fun.

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:37:37 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, miso
confessed the following:

Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message.

"Shack!"

Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
homework.

To piggyback "miso" further...

It's part of that old, "Loose lips sink ships" mantra...which
"fudog50" seems to be addressing when he asked:

I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?

Clearly the answer is an emphatic, "Well, duh!" Allan's posting is
after the fact...historical if you will. IOW he's not giving out
real-time or advance intelligence. Under your concern for OPSEC how
much time must pass before it would be permissible for Allan to post?

Again "fudog50" lamented:

(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)

Wrapping the flag AKA patriotism around your argument kinda gives you
some moral high ground. By your use of patriotism, folks opposed to
aspects of the Patriot Act or GWB/Cheney/Rove/Rumsfeld are
un-patriotic.

Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?

Awww come on now "fudog50" now you're just pandering. Put your
thinking cap on and contemplate probable targets and tactics. Think
those islamist ****s are going to go for a "fat juicy" civilian
airliner or an agile, mobile, and hostile military target?

Juvat

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike?

Hmmmm, how 'bout Athens Greece? Maybe Boston MA...

It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they
want because they have inflated ego's and because they can.

Respectfully, ego has ZERO to do with the question or the answer. You
assumed that Allan's posting of his log of military callsigns (and
aircraft type) is accurate. You also conclude this information is a
piece of the puzzle that may lead to a terrorist strike on something
(you don't speculate on what).

Allan's hobby is hardly the lynchpin in some possible terrorist
strike.

And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever
understand.

Ummm, are you telling us you're a SEAL? In a previous life I had the
honor of strapping a green & tan/green & gray twin engine J-79 powered
and a gray single engine F-100 powered aerospace training device to my
keester. Today I drive around on the pointy end of a twin engine 757.

Personally I hope the islamist ****s target the military and not
civilians...that's what the military gets paid for, plus the military
gets to shoot back. But you're right in a sense, I don't understand
any of your "hand wringing or the wailing and knashing of teeth," WRT
to Allan's posts.

Juvat

Get off the fence Robey.


On Sun, 23 May 2004 10:47:23 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

I dunno Juvat, you tell me, what is their next strike?

Hmmmm, how 'bout Athens Greece? Maybe Boston MA...

It's not worth even arguing anymore, people are gonna do what they
want because they have inflated ego's and because they can.

Respectfully, ego has ZERO to do with the question or the answer. You
assumed that Allan's posting of his log of military callsigns (and
aircraft type) is accurate. You also conclude this information is a
piece of the puzzle that may lead to a terrorist strike on something
(you don't speculate on what).

Allan's hobby is hardly the lynchpin in some possible terrorist
strike.

And most people that have never been on the pointy end will ever
understand.

Ummm, are you telling us you're a SEAL? In a previous life I had the
honor of strapping a green & tan/green & gray twin engine J-79 powered
and a gray single engine F-100 powered aerospace training device to my
keester. Today I drive around on the pointy end of a twin engine 757.

Personally I hope the islamist ****s target the military and not
civilians...that's what the military gets paid for, plus the military
gets to shoot back. But you're right in a sense, I don't understand
any of your "hand wringing or the wailing and knashing of teeth," WRT
to Allan's posts.

Juvat

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

Get off the fence Robey.

Pretty sure I'm not on the fence; my position is pretty clear. Allan's
posts are not a threat, and they are not against the law. You're
pretty much ****in' in the wind.

Juvat

Miso,
It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no
problem there.
It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,,

By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in
itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few
systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the
associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it.

How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our
current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere.

This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC
guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me
how irresponsible I am)

On 22 May 2004 05:07:10 -0700, (miso) wrote:

Security is the responsibility of the originator of the message. The
feds can make their signals secure any old time they want to. If you
monitored GHFS (or whatever they renamed it) during the active part of
the war (before POTUS landed on the carrier and declared it over), you
heard plenty of scrambled signals. [ANDVT or something like that]

Blaming a civilian with a scanner for intercepting your message is
about as responsible as telling the old lie that the dog ate your
homework. Any foreign spook who wants this info will not depend on the
net but will simply set up shop and do the job himself (or herself as
the case may be).

fudog50 wrote in message . ..
I suppose that my distress at following OPSEC apparently only
applies to us military folks.
I guess it is ok for civilians to violate "OPSEC' during time
of war?
(whether you agree or not, we are at war, where is your patriotism?
Why make it any easier for any potential enemy?)
Wouldn't it be horrible if the enemy used even a miniscule
part of your military A/C comms to add into a tactical strike?
It's your conscience now, can you live with it if even a
minute piece of your posting of CONOPS is used to plan an attack?
I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
current "OPSEC" guidelines.


On 21 May 2004 17:53:52 -0700, (miso) wrote:

It's really sad that they are still running single engine Cessna's in
the war on drugs given we lost two such planes in Columbia and US
citizens are still being held hostage from one of the crashes. I
wasn't aware the US had any of those Caravans registered in their own
name, rather than hide behind a shell corporation like "One Leasing".

As always, a nice job in mil air coms by Mr. Stern.


(AllanStern) wrote in message ...
Monday, 17 May 2004
Interesting comms today: some concerning one of the nation's newest acft,
the F/A-22 now at Tyndall AFB, and some about the good old days when "The Real
Stuff" was going on at Cape Canaveral, and I was there.

AIR TRANSPORT 400: DC-8, Little Rock (USAF Contractor)
8:58am: Lands Patrick. Later departs to Antigua, then to Ascension - both USAF
Eastern Test Range downrange sites.
[133.75]

N4667B: CE-208B Cessna Caravan, US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air Wing,
Patrick AFB.
9:17am: Departs Patrick.
2:50pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

HAWK 85; F/A-18D, Beaufort MCAS VMFA(AW)-533
9:44am: Transitions area to Mayport NAF
[269.3, 273.55]

MAKOs 11, 12: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:01am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 138.125]

SHARK 21: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:25am: Arrives to work at Avon Park Bombing Range.
10:45am: RTBs to HST.
[292.2, 307.1, 139.8]

AX 186: C-130T, Andrews AFB VR-53 "Capitol Express"
10:31am: Area transition. Might be C-40 acft replacing VR-53's C-130Ts, as
noted by Sandy in Colo recently.
[133.475, 132.15]

BRONCO 01: OV-10D, US State Dept US State Dept, Intl Narcotics Mission/Air
Wing, Patrick AFB.
10:45am: Departs Patrick (flight of 2).
4:12pm: Lands Patrick.
[133.75]

AKULA 31: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
10:52am: Single ship, arrives at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 307.1]

JOLLYs 11, 12: HH-60G Pave Hawk Helos, Patrick AFB 920RQW
11:51am: Departs Patrick; approaches at KMLB, Patrick.
[269.375]

PJ 610: P-3C, Whidbey Island NAS VP-69 "Totems" Sqdn
12:10pm: Lands Patrick.
[269.375]

HQ 475: SH-60B, Mayport NAF HSL-46 "Grandmasters" Sqdn
12:30pm: Area transition.
[132.65]

VDA 4813: AN-124, Volga Dnepr (Contractor)
2:30pm: Departs NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Facility. This huge Ukrainian
transport had RONd previous night after bringing large aerospace cargo. Note
RON at SLF instead of CCAFS whose runway is closed for construction.
[128.55, 132.65, 124.8, 133.3]

VAMPIRE 72: F/A-22, Tyndall AFB 325FW 43FS
2:45pm: Touch and go at Patrick on apparent fam flight through area; remains at
low altitude (and therefor VHF freqs). This is my first snag of comms from an
F/A-22. Was a bit too low and fast for me to get into my camera window.
Tyndall is USAF's only F/A-22 schoolhouse; so I expect to see more of them.
Made a wonderful shallow swooping pass over my house off of Patrick's Rnwy 20
before heading south along the coast. I LIKE this plane. Looks like it loves to
roll.
[133.75, 1312.65, 132.25]

SHARKs 21, 22, 23: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Strafing at Avon Park Bombing Range.
[292.2, 285.725, 139.8]

MAKO 11 Flight: F-16C, Homestead JARB 482FW 93FS
3:00pm: Hitting tgts at Avon Park.
3:04pm: MAKO 11 has to RTB HST with problem.
3:40pm: Balance of flight RTBs.
[292.2, 285.725, 307.1, 269.3, 239.25, 370.9, 322.5]

SHARK 89: C-130.
3:39pm: Area transition, to waypoint Nassau.
[119.825]

LIMA LIMA 38: P-3C Jacksonville NAS VP-30 "Pro's Nest" Sqdn.
3:45pm: Area transition.
[133.475]

ZANTOP 757: Zantop Intl (Charter), Ypsilanti MI
5:27pm: Area transition.
Those of us who were here in the 1960s Hey-days of the space program, remember
the ever-present Zantop acft at Patrick AFB, supporting operations. ZANTOP 757
engaged in some great reminiscences about those days; this pilot flew flights
into Patrick in the old days, and the 133.475 ATC was controlling flights back
then. Nice to hear them chat and to feel the nostalgia of my days during the
Gemini missions and the Saturn-Apollo moon-landing flights. I used to monitor
the action right from the beach in those days.

BOLT 13: KC-135R, MacDill 6AMW.
10:03pm: En route to Homestead.
[133.475, 119.825, 132.25]

AL STERN Satellite Beach FL (28-11N 80-36W) monitoring
Patrick AFB (KCOF) NASA-KSC Shuttle Landing Fac (KX68)
Avon Park Bombing Range (KAGR) Cape Canaveral AFS (KXMR)
JSTARS E-8 Acft Integration Facility, Melbourne IAP (KMLB)
Worldwide Military HF Communications
Life Member: Missile, Space and Range Pioneers.
http://hometown.aol.com/allanstern/m...age/index.html (My Freqs)
http://hometown.aol.com/scanaddict/index.html (My Equipment)

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

Miso,
It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no
problem there.
It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,,

By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in
itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few
systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the
associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it.

This is too funny to pass up. Ummm, were you the guy lamenting about
posting information about our techniques? And here you've decided that
this does NOT violate OPSEC...this is a hoot!

How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our
current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere.

Hmmm if I were an spook maybe I'd challenge your knowledge and say
"you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about," and hope your ego
gets in the way and you share a little more of your information,
nothing classified mind you. Too funny.

This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC
guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me
how irresponsible I am)

LOL...clearly the information you shared has no value because you
would never violate OPSEC protocols.

Juvat

You have no idea what you are talking about Robey, go back to
sleep,,,,yawn


On Sun, 23 May 2004 11:02:03 GMT, Robey Price
wrote:

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

Miso,
It's not the intercepting of the message that worries me, no
problem there.
It's what is then done with it that disturbs me,,,

By the way Advanced Narrow Band Digital Voice Terminal in
itself is not scrambled, just a means of SATCOM. There are a few
systems used by us, including DAMA, which includes wideband, but the
associated crypto gear is what "scrambles" it.

This is too funny to pass up. Ummm, were you the guy lamenting about
posting information about our techniques? And here you've decided that
this does NOT violate OPSEC...this is a hoot!

How do you know how a foreign spook will get his info? Our
current enemy (terrorists) might get it anywhere.

Hmmm if I were an spook maybe I'd challenge your knowledge and say
"you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about," and hope your ego
gets in the way and you share a little more of your information,
nothing classified mind you. Too funny.

This is just another piece of the puzzle, and under OPSEC
guidelines, is just wrong. (read up on OPSEC procedures then tell me
how irresponsible I am)

LOL...clearly the information you shared has no value because you
would never violate OPSEC protocols.

Juvat

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, fudog50
confessed the following:

You have no idea what you are talking about Robey, go back to
sleep,,,,yawn

Previously posted by this same fudog50:

I'll give it rest,,,,just think twice about posting military
CONOPS during time of war,,,again,,you are 100% in violation of
current "OPSEC" guidelines.

OK, so give it a rest...we've thought about it and conclude your are
in error.

BTW would this war be the War on Poverty, the War on Drugs, the War on
Illiteracy, or the war on terror? FYI that was a rhetorical question.

Juvat