Needed: Inexpensive AHRS module to work with Oudie, XCsoar, LK8000, etc...

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?

Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

WOW! Very well said, Evan.

On 4/28/2015 9:09 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?
Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Dan Marotta

On 4/28/2015 9:52 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
WOW! Very well said, Evan.

+2

Bob W.
- - - - - -

On 4/28/2015 9:09 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?
Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't
know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid
overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the
conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite
the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending
cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go
wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had
plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk
was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was
astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of
emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into
very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If
your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps
even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended
destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist
the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the
most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for
when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't
think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement
when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

-- Dan Marotta

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?

Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Mostly agree. Twisting the dragon's tail (flying too close to cloudbase, in a wet wave with clouds below, etc.) can get you eaten big time.

But so can a really hazy day, when the horizon slowly disappears...sort of a "boiling a frog" scenario.

100%? To me, that would imply never taking off, and just watching cat videos on Youtube...

But yeah, it all boils down to airmanship, knowing your environment, and preparing for what you may encounter.

Kirk
66

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66



On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66



On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66
Hi Kirk
Part of the LK8000 software is a page, with artificial horizon, digital values for track, ground speed vario, A/S etc. It is functional on the PNA that I have it installed on, and it is inexpensive.
Rob Frith

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 2:10:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

If you think that a solid state...always on...artificial horizon system is less stable and dependable than a vacuum driven gyro system, or electrically driven gyro system, or mechanical system...we are in different solar systems.

I have flown many artificial horizon systems. The new digital...always on....fully electronic systems are awesome.

Get real. Understand that when you get sucked into the soup that you need accurate information that is instantly understandable, right now.

With the LX Nav S80 system (or Butterfly vario system) you are never more than two button pushes away from an instantly understandable and fully up to speed display that, if you understand it, will save your sorry ass.

Take your alternative systems into a dual aircraft and put some real blinders on and see how you do. You cannot accurately touch virtual buttons on your smartphones while tumbling inside a cloud. You cannot wait for a system to boot from a cold start. Your rational mind will not be working when you try to understand how a compass, ASI, and bubble need to be responded to when you have not practiced this over and over and over.

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:54:14 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Take your alternative systems into a dual aircraft and put some real blinders on and see how you do.

Check

You cannot accurately touch virtual buttons on your smartphones while tumbling inside a cloud.

Check

You cannot wait for a system to boot from a cold start.

Check

Your rational mind will not be working when you try to understand how a compass, ASI, and bubble need to be responded to when you have not practiced this over and over and over.

Bubble tells you nothing that yaw string doesn't (unless yaw string is frozen.) These three things are indeed enough under certain very exceptional circumstances (involving smooth air and freedom to choose heading according to what works with the compass, rather than terrain.) In most real-world circumstances you need much more. If wind is in same ballpark as airspeed, that "something else" had better not be a simple GPS-based map display or "heading" indicator or GPS-derived "bank angle" indicator. An ARHS-based artificial horizon display is great, running on vario or on some sort of RELIABLE, hard-mounted tablet etc. I'm having trouble believing the reliability is really there with most cobbled-together systems, but don't know that much about it. I noted another option on related thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters": http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....-in-enclosure/ . Same basic concept as TruTrac which is another option. Either of these is an instant-on or rapid-on piezoelectric turn rate sensor.

S

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:19:03 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

This is scary to say the least. Even if your unit works most of the time there is always a possibility of a software defect and ultimately freezing of the device. The more I am reading this thread the more I am scared to share airspace with some of you! Who knows what other ideas you might have...

Regards, AK

Andrzej, what specifically do you find scary? Having a backup attitude indicator available for the (hopefully rare) possibility that you find yourself IMC? That is already being incorporated in the new top-of-the line (read: expensive) varios, so why not have the same technology available at an affordable price for all the gliders that already have a big glass display in their cockpit?

As far as reliablity, I would trust any electronic solution more than a mechanical gyro! Especially in a glider, getting banged around while being trailered, etc.

As far as using any turn & bank type of indicator, really? Unless you are instrument rated and/or practice a lot (like the Brits, apparently), I doubt if the average US glider pilot could learn to maintain attitude in a cloud via needle, ball, and airspeed on his first attempt for real! With a big attitude display, I would expect the chances would be a lot higher.

Remember, I'm talking about an EMERGENCY setup here, since for most of us in the US cloud flying is not a practical thing to do. So I don't care if it's not TSO'd. But all the bits and pieces are already out there, it just would be nice if they were combined in a way that would be useful to us.

We wear parachutes that we hope never to use, install flarm to prevent the midair we hope to avoid. I'd like an emergency attitude source to avoid the spiral dive I never plan to get into!

Cheers,

Kirk

(And if you are wondering, yes I do have experience in hard IMC, know what vertigo feels like, and have flown needle-ball-airspeed and glass cockpits, to include HUDs.)

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:00:42 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:19:03 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

This is scary to say the least. Even if your unit works most of the time there is always a possibility of a software defect and ultimately freezing of the device. The more I am reading this thread the more I am scared to share airspace with some of you! Who knows what other ideas you might have....

Regards, AK

Andrzej, what specifically do you find scary? Having a backup attitude indicator available for the (hopefully rare) possibility that you find yourself IMC? That is already being incorporated in the new top-of-the line (read: expensive) varios, so why not have the same technology available at an affordable price for all the gliders that already have a big glass display in their cockpit?

As far as reliablity, I would trust any electronic solution more than a mechanical gyro! Especially in a glider, getting banged around while being trailered, etc.

As far as using any turn & bank type of indicator, really? Unless you are instrument rated and/or practice a lot (like the Brits, apparently), I doubt if the average US glider pilot could learn to maintain attitude in a cloud via needle, ball, and airspeed on his first attempt for real! With a big attitude display, I would expect the chances would be a lot higher.

Remember, I'm talking about an EMERGENCY setup here, since for most of us in the US cloud flying is not a practical thing to do. So I don't care if it's not TSO'd. But all the bits and pieces are already out there, it just would be nice if they were combined in a way that would be useful to us.

We wear parachutes that we hope never to use, install flarm to prevent the midair we hope to avoid. I'd like an emergency attitude source to avoid the spiral dive I never plan to get into!

Cheers,

Kirk

(And if you are wondering, yes I do have experience in hard IMC, know what vertigo feels like, and have flown needle-ball-airspeed and glass cockpits, to include HUDs.)

Kirk, I was lucky enough to receive excellent glider training including aerobatics and flying in clouds (all of it in Europe) and I have no problems with people who want to have good quality AHRS or turn and bank indicator installed in their gliders. Flying gliders in IMC is not easy and having a back up is not going to do any good to anyone without training.

What worries me is that someone suggests using LK8000 as an AHRS device.

Certified solid state AHRS go through comprehensive test scenarios. Modern AHRS is almost all software and as we know software has defects. There is no perfect software. There are just defects that are known and defects that are yet to be discovered.

Some suggestions here are good but some like $100-$200 solid state solution is just not realistic, while the sensors might be cheap a bullet proof software that uses these sensors is not. If I wanted to have a backup I would definitely spend the money on proper solid state AHRS. There are other considerations e.g. icing that can render some AHRS included in glider instruments useless if airspeed indication is lost. With modern slippery gliders flying without ASI due to icing could be all but impossible.

The quote below is from Karl's website. I often think about this quote when flying.

"We do not what we ought;
What we ought not, we do;
And lean upon the thought
That chance will bring us through."
(Matthew Arnold)

I am certainly afraid of people coming out of a cloud through the bottom in an uncontrollable way while I am there just because they ventured into the place they should not have been (as Evan said) encouraged by their great LX8000 AHRS backup.

Please note. LX8000 is great software, but it never was intended to be used as AHRS no even in emergency.

Regards,
AK