F15E/1941

From: Bob Urz
Date: 5/30/2004 6:32 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Bob



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Nuke the task force into oblivion. The shock wave and heat flash will knock
down or toast the 1/2 wave that has launched and is formating in the area. If
the fleet vanished it would confuse the hell out of the Japanese and Pearl
would be safe.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
|
|| -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
|
| Nuke the task force into oblivion. The shock wave and heat flash will
knock
| down or toast the 1/2 wave that has launched and is formating in the area.
If
| the fleet vanished it would confuse the hell out of the Japanese and Pearl
| would be safe.
|
| Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

--

The temptation would always be to nuke the task force - then nuke the ashes.

Personally, I'd lob a single nuke into the middle of the battle group,
bend all the carriers double and sunburn the crews. Hopefully, there's
be a destroyer or an oiler that will limp back to port with an unbelievable
'pika don' story.


Cheers


Dave Kearton

In message , Bob Urz
writes
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

If you're not counting nukes, then I'd go for laser-guided bombs. Don't
know what the options are for type and number of LGBs on a F-15E, but
they're probably the best option for doing maximum damage off limited
pylons against moving targets.

Air-to-air weapons are pretty much irrelevant - you'll get maybe eight
Sidewinders and 900 rounds of 20mm for two planes, so a dozen kills.
Won't hurt to shoot off the AIM-9s on egress, but the priority is
killing the carriers.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Lofted LGBs from standoff and altitude, with one aircraft designating
and the other dropping: as the weapons fly, the dropper keeps an eye for
any Japanese fighters trying to claw up to engage and lets them have a
Sidewinder or two in the face to dissuade them.

If fuel's not a problem, then hit the carriers with one LGB at a time,
from ahead or astern and targetting elevators for maximum disruption.
That should rapidly eliminate their flying capabilities and give a good
chance of causing catastrophic damage.

Resist the temptation to come in and strafe afterwards: they'll still
have a lot of barrage AAA and you can't do enough damage to justify the
risk.

Warning Pearl might be a problem by radio, but a few high-speed flypasts
and some strafing runs shooting up the water off Battleship Row should
alert Oahu that *something* is unusual and heightened alert would be
wise. If you want to go air-to-air with the attackers, waiting until
they're nearly at Pearl might be the best idea in order to disrupt and
confuse their attack even if you can't kill many of them.

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier.

Kill the carriers: with the carriers gone, so is the strike force and
its irreplaceable pilots.


Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Get on the ground, and prepare to be *very* persuasive - your knowledge
of history is a vital weapon if you can persuade anyone to believe you


--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Paul J. Adam wrote:

-snips-

Get on the ground, and prepare to be *very* persuasive - your knowledge
of history is a vital weapon if you can persuade anyone to believe you


I would think two F-15s sitting on the tarmack at HIckham would lend
a certain credibility.

Cheers and all,

Bill Shatzer wrote:



On Mon, 31 May 2004, Paul J. Adam wrote:

-snips-


Get on the ground, and prepare to be *very* persuasive - your knowledge
of history is a vital weapon if you can persuade anyone to believe you



I would think two F-15s sitting on the tarmack at HIckham would lend
a certain credibility.

Cheers and all,

I think two F-15's at hickham in 1941 would have been the equivalent of
seeing aliens at roswell.......

Bob



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Bob Urz wrote in message ...
Bill Shatzer wrote:



On Mon, 31 May 2004, Paul J. Adam wrote:

-snips-


Get on the ground, and prepare to be *very* persuasive - your knowledge
of history is a vital weapon if you can persuade anyone to believe you



I would think two F-15s sitting on the tarmack at HIckham would lend
a certain credibility.

Cheers and all,

I think two F-15's at hickham in 1941 would have been the equivalent of
seeing aliens at roswell.......

Heh, I was thinking the same thing.

Hey, once you've gone winchester in the Beagles, do you thing the jets
could slice a few of the attacking Japanese planes successfully with
midair passes?

In message , Jeb Hoge
writes
Hey, once you've gone winchester in the Beagles, do you thing the jets
could slice a few of the attacking Japanese planes successfully with
midair passes?

Don't think so - and you want those Beagles as intact as you can for as
long as you can. Be a shame to lose half your force to a golden BB by a
determined rear-gunner.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the Pearl
but read on.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.
Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Read above, observe and report.
And when things get hot run like hell so you can live to fight another day.

"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in
:

[snip]

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by
attacking the Japanese fleet unprovoked!

Unprovoked?
Half the IJN sitting witihn striking range of Pearl Harbo(u)r
isn't a provocation in and of itself?
Air wings bonbed up with props turning and you're worried about
possibly provoking them?
Are you Spanish? Oh wait, .NL, Jeez if it had been guys like you
in charge way back when instead of Wilhelmus van Nassau you'd be
Spanish.

Admittedly the Japanese might be out there whale watching but I
kinda doubt it and I think the Army and Navy Departments would have
disagreed.

Its interesting to consider what might have happened had a US sub
undetected by the Japanese been able to give 24hrs notice and been
believed. The fleet would probably have sortied although to what
end is not certain and the US carriers might have been able to lay
their own ambush. It would be too much to hope for an early Midway
but who knows. In the best of all possible worlds the Battleships
would have snuck up to within gun range of the Jap task force and
done a successful Leyte on their ass. Oh the look on Yamamotos face
as dawn broke to a horizon lined with US BBs, CAs, CLs, DDs, etc
just as they opened fire and the lookouts spotted inbound torpedoes.

Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can
launch fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE
Japanese attack.

How? Think modern military have problems interoperating?
I very much suspect you'd have no frequencies or modulation in
common. Wasn't most military traffic by Morse anyhow?

Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as
many as possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of
B-17s and B-25s against the Japanese carriers.

Which, at that point in the war would accomplish precisely nothing.

Hang max load of 500lb LGBs on the Eagles, screw the AAMs and 20mm.
You're faster than anything they could possibly get to you and
you don't need to get near the carriers to do them dirt.
As has been pointed out, if you catch them at the right time, one
bomb might do it for each carrier and if not you have plenty
in reserve.

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"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the
Pearl
but read on.

Too bad nuclear armed AIM-4's aren't in the inventory. Just shoot that into
the Japanese formation and no jap airplane makes it to Pearl. Then use one
or two B-61's against the Jap fleet. Then island hop (unless you give me a
KC-10) to the Phillipines and stop McArthur from screwing up. Maybe even
save PoW and Repulse.

How long will an eagles engine last on avgas?



Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.
Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.

Simply by being where they were they showed hostile intent. If by sheer
luck we could have had a fleet led by Halsey to intercept them no orders
from above would have been necessary.


Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Read above, observe and report.
And when things get hot run like hell so you can live to fight another
day.