F15E/1941

Leadfoot wrote:

"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...

I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.


Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the

Pearl

but read on.


Too bad nuclear armed AIM-4's aren't in the inventory. Just shoot that into
the Japanese formation and no jap airplane makes it to Pearl. Then use one
or two B-61's against the Jap fleet. Then island hop (unless you give me a
KC-10) to the Phillipines and stop McArthur from screwing up. Maybe even
save PoW and Repulse.

How long will an eagles engine last on avgas?



Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)


Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.
Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.


Simply by being where they were they showed hostile intent. If by sheer
luck we could have had a fleet led by Halsey to intercept them no orders
from above would have been necessary.

You would have to stick with 1941 weapons, tactics, and knowledge base.
There were hard lessons learned early in the pacific on how to
deal with a zero.

Now, if you emptied the harbor of capital ships for a strike force the
Japanese spies would have relayed the information back and the jap fleet
may have turned back. Or set up for attack.

The carriers that were not in in harbor and subs would have made a sneak
strike force. But considering the skills of the carrier pilots at that
stage of the game, we might have got a jap carrier or two on surprise,
but maybe lost all of the US carrier force we had. And i doubt that
sending a bunch or B17's would have been effective except to draw flack
fire. Losing those carriers at that stage of the war may have been worse
than the pearl attack. It's not like the decks were full of
F4U's and F4F's at that time.

Even if you would have emptied the harbor and used every available asset
on short notice and went head to head with the whole Japanese fleet,
what do you think the result would be? My guess is a lot of those
antiques in the harbor were not ready to sail on a moments notice
into battle. So 6 carriers, 2 battle ships, 2 heavy cruisers, 9
destroyers, and up to 30 jap subs were in the area if this page is correct:

http://www.ww2pacific.com/pearljp.html

The end result may have been about the same only with US carrier loses.
It would have been the biggest naval battle of the war possibly if
if happened. With that many subs in the area and possible Japanese
air recon, i doubt that total surprise could have been achieved.
It would have made a good Ben Aflack Movie though.

Bob






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"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...

Now, if you emptied the harbor of capital ships for a strike force the
Japanese spies would have relayed the information back and the jap fleet
may have turned back. Or set up for attack.

Umm, then how come the Japanese spies didn't tell the fleet that the
carriers were gone? As far as I know, right up to when the Japanese were
over Oahu they thought the carriers were there.

Ragnar wrote:
"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...

Now, if you emptied the harbor of capital ships for a strike force the
Japanese spies would have relayed the information back and the jap fleet
may have turned back. Or set up for attack.

Umm, then how come the Japanese spies didn't tell the fleet that the
carriers were gone? As far as I know, right up to when the Japanese were
over Oahu they thought the carriers were there.

It's been said that the target ship USS Utah (former BB with turrets
removed and railroad ties lining the upper deck for extra protection
from practice projectiles) may have been mistaken for a carrier.

The Japanese certainly paid it the attention due a carrier, anyway.

If the fleet had been in the open sea the Japanese would have been even
more eager to attack. Less likely that we'd be able to salvage sunken
ships. (Nagumo had hoped to catch the fleet at the training anchorage
near Lahaina - nice, deep water there.)

The Japanese spies were pretty slow to get information out - I seem to
recall reading that the most up-to-date information they had at the time
the attack was launched was a week old.
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

"Jeroen Wenting" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the
Pearl
but read on.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Nothing at all. After all, the US doesn't want to start a war by attacking
the Japanese fleet unprovoked!
Instead, shadow them and report a warning back to Pearl so they can launch
fighters to protect the installations there against a POSSIBLE Japanese
attack.

Unnecessary, the Japanese were launching simultaneous attacks
across the PTO, the Phillipines and Wake were both hit
around the same time as Pearl Harbor

In any event launching a strike force that close to Hawaii
wasnt exactly a peaceful act.

Keith

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Jeroen Wenting wrote:

Only after the Japanese show definite hostile intent shoot down as many as
possible and provide guidance for a retaliatory strike of B-17s and B-25s
against the Japanese carriers.

There weren't any B-25s on Oahu[1] and the only B-17s were the
one squadron which was ferrying in from California (without
guns!) and which was caught the landing pattern just as
the Japanese attack was reaching it's zenith.

B-17s, in any case, displayed a remarkable inability to
hit manuevering warships at sea. Even assuming the squadron
from California could have landed at Hickham intact and undamaged,
and even assuming that a B-17 counterstrike could have been
armed and launched, there's little reason to believe that
they would have hit any thing at all except, possibly, the
pacific ocean.

[1] There was a squadron of obsolescent B-18s at Hickham.
There's no reason to suppose the B-18s would have
been any more effective or accurate than the B-17s later
proved to be.

Cheers and all,

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Jeroen Wenting wrote:

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the Pearl
but read on.

What would be the effect of the sonic boom generated by two
F-15s passing at Mach 1.4 at a distance of, say, 200 meters
on a flight of B5Ns?

Is air-to-air ordinance necessary at all?

Cheers and all,

Bill Shatzer wrote in
:

On Mon, 31 May 2004, Jeroen Wenting wrote:

Just anti-air. Winders and AMRAAM would do the trick nicely.
And no, that's not enough to take out half the force that took on the
Pearl but read on.

What would be the effect of the sonic boom generated by two
F-15s passing at Mach 1.4 at a distance of, say, 200 meters
on a flight of B5Ns?

Might shake them up a tiny bit but do no harm I'm thinking.
Aside from a certain of amount of "Did you see what I think
I saw" or the Japanese equivalent.

IBM

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I guess the simple sight of "birds" like a pair of F-15E's with U.S.
markings would:

1) Surely make the Japs realize that surprise had been lost. No "Tora
Tora Tora".

2) Probably make the Jap CO think that there were others "birds like
that" at Pearl and that he better call his planes back. Hehe. Who
would wnat to go to war, in 1941, with a country that had weapons like
the Strike Eagle? :-)

1 + 2 = No need to strike the carriers. Just the sight of those Eagles
would
be enough to make the Japs **** in their pants and sail back to Japan
as
fast as they could. :-)

"Vicente Vazquez" wrote in message
om...
I guess the simple sight of "birds" like a pair of F-15E's with U.S.
markings would:

1) Surely make the Japs realize that surprise had been lost. No "Tora
Tora Tora".

2) Probably make the Jap CO think that there were others "birds like
that" at Pearl and that he better call his planes back. Hehe. Who
would wnat to go to war, in 1941, with a country that had weapons like
the Strike Eagle? :-)

1 + 2 = No need to strike the carriers. Just the sight of those Eagles
would
be enough to make the Japs **** in their pants and sail back to Japan
as
fast as they could. :-)

Thats not the Japanese way.

Aggressive and brutal as they were they never hesitated
to attack even when the odds were stacked against them.
You can criticise their morality and judgement but they
were supremely courageous.

Keith




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"Vicente Vazquez" wrote in message
om...
I guess the simple sight of "birds" like a pair of F-15E's with U.S.
markings would:

1) Surely make the Japs realize that surprise had been lost. No "Tora
Tora Tora".

2) Probably make the Jap CO think that there were others "birds like
that" at Pearl and that he better call his planes back. Hehe. Who
would wnat to go to war, in 1941, with a country that had weapons like
the Strike Eagle? :-)

1 + 2 = No need to strike the carriers. Just the sight of those Eagles
would
be enough to make the Japs **** in their pants and sail back to Japan
as
fast as they could. :-)

Thats not the Japanese way.

Aggressive and brutal as they were they never hesitated
to attack even when the odds were stacked against them.
You can criticise their morality and judgement but they
were supremely courageous.

Keith




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