FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

I've waited a long time to jump into this fascinating thread so will keep my comments short:

What's the big deal with "leeching"? It's a race - almost all other racing sports encourage close racing! That way small differences in skill are accentuated and the luck factor is reduced.

I'm all for full use of FLARM. I like knowing where everyone is (not like there is a big crowd at races these days).

For you guys who want to go off on your own and exercise your magical skills alone - three words: On Line Contest.

I like the challenge of outclimbing someone, and running a better energy line, and flying a more aggressive final glide. Winning by seconds, as XX wrote.

If "leeching" brings a few newbies into the race scene, great! What is the chance of someone leeching his way onto the US world team?

And for that matter, if FLARM is becoming a tactical tool at the Worlds, shouldn't we be training to use that way in our Regional and National races?

So my vote (if it comes to that) is NO to Stealth mode. Bring on the tech!

Kirk
66
Happily PFing since 2013

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 1:44:19 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
I've waited a long time to jump into this fascinating thread so will keep my comments short:

What's the big deal with "leeching"? It's a race - almost all other racing sports encourage close racing! That way small differences in skill are accentuated and the luck factor is reduced.

I'm all for full use of FLARM. I like knowing where everyone is (not like there is a big crowd at races these days).

For you guys who want to go off on your own and exercise your magical skills alone - three words: On Line Contest.

I like the challenge of outclimbing someone, and running a better energy line, and flying a more aggressive final glide. Winning by seconds, as XX wrote.

If "leeching" brings a few newbies into the race scene, great! What is the chance of someone leeching his way onto the US world team?

And for that matter, if FLARM is becoming a tactical tool at the Worlds, shouldn't we be training to use that way in our Regional and National races?

So my vote (if it comes to that) is NO to Stealth mode. Bring on the tech!

Kirk
66
Happily PFing since 2013

From the information I'm seeing, Flarm in a reduced capability mode(competition mode or such)will almost certainly be in effect at the WGC level.
I'm curious as to how you will feel when your 2 friends team fly using the capabilities of Flarm to keep track of each other, including climb rates, without needing to talk on the radio. I, for one, will be seriously not happy.
How about weather radar?
How about near real time display of all competitors position, track, altitude, and climb rate?
How about the crew sending tactical info to the pilot?
The question becomes how far do we open the door and what are the likely affects on our sport?
UH

Hank, you or RC will not be able to ban ADS-B out and neither will IGC.

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 4:12:30 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
Hank, you or RC will not be able to ban ADS-B out and neither will IGC.

The question will be what will be permissible to be displayed in the cockpit when flying in competition.
UH

Just some general musings but I wonder if limiting technology will work for long. The Stratus 2S will display all ADS-B traffic and and also weather and synthetic vision. In a few years we might all have to have ADS-B out. The Air Avionics transponder already will transmit ADS-B if linked to a GPS.. Seems like more and more gliders are opting to install transponders.

An example of limiting technology is to not allow cloud flying instruments (butterfly, LX S80, Bohli compass) yet all the smart phones and tablets have apps for horizon. Cloud flying is already illegal, true leeching will leave you with no respect from fellow competitors. If someone wants to cheat I am pretty sure they will find a way.

I would say embrace technology advances so no one has an advantage. Through the ages of competition it is proven that you have to be the best to win.

Remember the debate over GPS loggers, who wants to go back to the days of no GPS?

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 2:57:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:

From the information I'm seeing, Flarm in a reduced capability mode(competition mode or such)will almost certainly be in effect at the WGC level.
I'm curious as to how you will feel when your 2 friends team fly using the capabilities of Flarm to keep track of each other, including climb rates, without needing to talk on the radio. I, for one, will be seriously not happy.
How about weather radar?
How about near real time display of all competitors position, track, altitude, and climb rate?
How about the crew sending tactical info to the pilot?
The question becomes how far do we open the door and what are the likely affects on our sport?
UH

I think it would be fun! The more info the better, and the person/team that uses it the best, and flies the best, will still win.

All sports change to absorb new technology - look at the America's cup or Formula 1! Nothing prevents a CM from declaring Stealth mode - but how often do we declare NO-GPS and break out our charts and cameras!

And if it means crews become more involved in our racing - that would be great!

Who knows - maybe all the cool tech would attract a new generation of contest pilots - so maybe it's the juniors we need to be asking about all this.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On 8/21/2015 3:27 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 2:57:12 PM UTC-5,
wrote:

From the information I'm seeing, Flarm in a reduced capability
mode(competition mode or such)will almost certainly be in effect at the
WGC level. I'm curious as to how you will feel when your 2 friends team
fly using the capabilities of Flarm to keep track of each other,
including climb rates, without needing to talk on the radio. I, for one,
will be seriously not happy. How about weather radar? How about near real
time display of all competitors position, track, altitude, and climb
rate? How about the crew sending tactical info to the pilot? The question
becomes how far do we open the door and what are the likely affects on
our sport? UH

I think it would be fun! The more info the better, and the person/team that
uses it the best, and flies the best, will still win.

All sports change to absorb new technology - look at the America's cup or
Formula 1!

By way of Devil's advocacy...when I look at America's Cup and Formula 1, I see
two of the most expensive sports in the world; both have been that way for
"quite some time now." Arguably, each has *always* been at the pinnacles of
their respective sports' costs. You might even argue that both today are
examples of "If you build it, they will come," sorts of sports in audience
terms. How exactly might we make that work in soaring?

FWIW, in both sports, there's far more participation in headcount terms in the
lesser expensive spectra...

Bob W.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:23:09 -0600, BobW wrote:

On 8/21/2015 3:27 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 2:57:12 PM UTC-5,
wrote:

From the information I'm seeing, Flarm in a reduced capability
mode(competition mode or such)will almost certainly be in effect at
the WGC level. I'm curious as to how you will feel when your 2 friends
team fly using the capabilities of Flarm to keep track of each other,
including climb rates, without needing to talk on the radio. I, for
one, will be seriously not happy. How about weather radar? How about
near real time display of all competitors position, track, altitude,
and climb rate? How about the crew sending tactical info to the pilot?
The question becomes how far do we open the door and what are the
likely affects on our sport? UH

I think it would be fun! The more info the better, and the person/team
that uses it the best, and flies the best, will still win.

All sports change to absorb new technology - look at the America's cup
or Formula 1!

By way of Devil's advocacy...when I look at America's Cup and Formula 1,
I see two of the most expensive sports in the world; both have been that
way for "quite some time now." Arguably, each has *always* been at the
pinnacles of their respective sports' costs. You might even argue that
both today are examples of "If you build it, they will come," sorts of
sports in audience terms. How exactly might we make that work in
soaring?

FWIW, in both sports, there's far more participation in headcount terms
in the lesser expensive spectra...

With all due respect, the active participation in headcount terms is
bugger all. 20 or so drivers in F1 and under 20 yachts with crews of
around 10 in the AmCup aren't exactly large numbers of participants in
global terms. The numbers who will take the trouble to go to the track to
watch are also pretty insignificant compared to the headcount of those
whose total participation consists of vegging out in front of the goggle
box.

This is the exact opposite of soaring, where almost the entirety of
people involved in the sport are either active participants or those who
have stopped flying due to infirmity or age. We have almost no passive
spectators and I, for one, am happy with this situation because soaring,
along with ocean sailing racing and mountaineering, is one of the least
spectator-friendly sports in existence.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 8/21/2015 6:22 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:23:09 -0600, BobW wrote:

Snip
By way of Devil's advocacy...when I look at America's Cup and Formula 1,
I see two of the most expensive sports in the world; both have been that
way for "quite some time now." Arguably, each has *always* been at the
pinnacles of their respective sports' costs. You might even argue that
both today are examples of "If you build it, they will come," sorts of
sports in audience terms. How exactly might we make that work in
soaring?

FWIW, in both sports, there's far more participation in headcount terms
in the lesser expensive spectra...

With all due respect, the active participation in headcount terms is
bugger all. 20 or so drivers in F1 and under 20 yachts with crews of
around 10 in the AmCup aren't exactly large numbers of participants in
global terms. The numbers who will take the trouble to go to the track to
watch are also pretty insignificant compared to the headcount of those
whose total participation consists of vegging out in front of the goggle
box.

This is the exact opposite of soaring, where almost the entirety of
people involved in the sport are either active participants or those who
have stopped flying due to infirmity or age. We have almost no passive
spectators and I, for one, am happy with this situation because soaring,
along with ocean sailing racing and mountaineering, is one of the least
spectator-friendly sports in existence.


Thanks for clarifying what I attempted poorly to suggest in my 2nd paragraph.
In the U.S., the Sports Car Club of America (to name one of the national
groups promoting "average Joe" racing for weekend warriors) might be
considered analogous to SSA and its membership when comparing SCCA to Formula
1, where the aoaring equivalent of Formula 1 doesn't exist...and never will
exist in any of my imaginary futures, except maybe in some perverted form in
support of nationally-backed warfare.

The point I sought to make is that in soaring - just as with automobile and
sailboat racing - there's some sort of inverse correlation between the cost
barriers to entry and participation levels. "Qu'elle surprise!"

Bob W.

Time for a bit of tough love:

Anyone that knowingly or willingly disables or permits to be disabled, diminishes or otherwise attenuates the function of a Flarm device should be tarred, feathered and excommunicated from the sport. I don't want to be in the same sky as you and your greedy, self-centred use of an aid to collision avoidance. As leeching doesn't impede the sports worst nor best (performance wise), I view you as being in the middle of the pack. Frustrated by your own inadequacies you jealously guard your position under the misguided notion that the world wants to steal your performance from you. Newsflash: you aren't as good as you think you are and your performance isn't a magic bullet for your competitors. As it takes two hands to clap (two gliders to splinter?) your selfishness could have very morbid consequences. How about we intermittently fiddle with your ripcord?

I compete for fun so I'm not going to pretend I'm as performance-orientated as some of the other posters within this topic. I reconcile my performance at the end of the day with one person - me. I can't do that if I've followed someone else around the sky.

CJ

And for the record, I'm:
Anti leaching
Anti team flying (unless specifically permitted)
Pro Flarm