Radio acting up

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Finally got to the radio in my glider and found that with all the instruments on, I am getting a huge voltage drop at the radio when I transmit causing the cyclic drop of the signal. With all the other instruments off and a fresh battery, I have no problems. Also the voltage is dropping at the radio and not the battery. Looks like I need to replace the wiring from the batteries to the panel and redo the wiring behind the panel. Planning on using one battery for the radio, and one for the transponder and everything else. I'm also going to add circuit breakers and run two master switches, one for each battery. Does anyone have any knowledge of the tyco circuit breakers sold by aircraft spruce? They are pretty low cost, but are they cheap?

Thanks,
3Y

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 9:44:18 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Finally got to the radio in my glider and found that with all the instruments on, I am getting a huge voltage drop at the radio when I transmit causing the cyclic drop of the signal. With all the other instruments off and a fresh battery, I have no problems. Also the voltage is dropping at the radio and not the battery. Looks like I need to replace the wiring from the batteries to the panel and redo the wiring behind the panel. Planning on using one battery for the radio, and one for the transponder and everything else. I'm also going to add circuit breakers and run two master switches, one for each battery. Does anyone have any knowledge of the tyco circuit breakers sold by aircraft spruce? They are pretty low cost, but are they cheap?

Thanks,
3Y

Which radio?

Fuses have lower voltage drop (much lower) than circuit breakers.

When you say, fresh battery, is that just off charge or new?

What other loads on the battery? varios, computer, pda, flarm, cameras?

Lead acid or LiFePo?

Real aircraft wiring, proper guage?

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 9:44:18 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Finally got to the radio in my glider and found that with all the instruments on, I am getting a huge voltage drop at the radio when I transmit causing the cyclic drop of the signal. With all the other instruments off and a fresh battery, I have no problems. Also the voltage is dropping at the radio and not the battery. Looks like I need to replace the wiring from the batteries to the panel and redo the wiring behind the panel. Planning on using one battery for the radio, and one for the transponder and everything else. I'm also going to add circuit breakers and run two master switches, one for each battery. Does anyone have any knowledge of the tyco circuit breakers sold by aircraft spruce? They are pretty low cost, but are they cheap?

Thanks,
3Y

Use fuses, not circuit breakers. Breakers can cause a big voltage drop.
UH

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring.. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old.. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

I would start at the battery and go back through the wiring to see where the voltage is dropping.
Could be a loose connection, corroded connection, broken wire (inside the insulation), etc.
Since the voltage drop is different between what the radio see's and at the battery, it's a wiring issue.

On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old.. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

Your power budget:

Core - 165 mA
Butterfly - 45 mA
302 - 350mA
B400 - 200 mA
Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
TT21 - 200 mA
So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)

The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
1.45 A radio standby
1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
3.88 A radio transmit

That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).

An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

Your power budget:

Core - 165 mA
Butterfly - 45 mA
302 - 350mA
B400 - 200 mA
Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
TT21 - 200 mA
So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)

The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
1.45 A radio standby
1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
3.88 A radio transmit

That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).

An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.

Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.

My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not the drop at the battery (in voltage)?
If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when transmitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close to the voltage drop at the radio?

Just asking....

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12.8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

Your power budget:

Core - 165 mA
Butterfly - 45 mA
302 - 350mA
B400 - 200 mA
Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
TT21 - 200 mA
So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)

The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
1.45 A radio standby
1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
3.88 A radio transmit

That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).

An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb..net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.

Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.

My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not the drop at the battery (in voltage)?
If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when transmitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close to the voltage drop at the radio?

Just asking....

Distribution losses . Wire size, terminations, current protection, ground problems, etc.
UH

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:33:54 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:06:49 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:07:08 AM UTC-5, Dan Daly wrote:
On Monday, January 25, 2016 at 10:49:17 PM UTC-5, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 3:05:51 PM UTC-6, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

Ship was rewired by the previous owner, not sure if he used aircraft wiring. Batteries are lead acid 12v. 12amp hr, one new, one about two years old. Currently one battery supplies everything, instruments are Power Flarm Core w/ Butterfly display, Cambridge 302 vario, Borgelt B400 vario, Oudie 2, Becker 4201 radio, Trigg 21 transponder. Batteries both have about 12..8 volts just off the charger. Voltage at radio drops about 2.5 to 3 volts when transmitting and about .4volts at the battery when transmitting.

Your power budget:

Core - 165 mA
Butterfly - 45 mA
302 - 350mA
B400 - 200 mA
Oudie 2 - 200 - 220 mA plus 200 mA if battery is being charged
TT21 - 200 mA
So about 1180 mA with no radio (1380 mA if Oudie is charging - I don't know if you bring it to the airport charged or not)

The radio: Becker 4201 - 70 mA standby 500 mA receive 2.5 A transmit
So draw is (worst case, Oudie is charging):
1.45 A radio standby
1.88 A radio receive (don't know how active your frequency is)
3.88 A radio transmit

That's a lot of draw for one battery when the radio is transmitting. I have an ammeter that I put in between my battery and the glider to test draw - inexpensive way of looking at what I'm asking the battery to do. By all means, check the wiring, but you might be better off with two circuits (my opinion).

An excellent presentation on glider avionic wiring is the "2015 Nephi OLC Camp presentation", which you can download at: http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/. Excellent in all respects - note the comments on wire size, and circuit breakers... Great work by John DeRosa.

Excellent post, lot's of thought & research.

My only issue is...... why the drop at the radio (in voltage) but not the drop at the battery (in voltage)?
If the total system was overdrawing the battery (or, the drop when transmitting...), wouldn't you think the battery voltage drop would be close to the voltage drop at the radio?

Just asking....

Distribution losses . Wire size, terminations, current protection, ground problems, etc.
UH

Great reply.... look at this list (not the be all to end all...) to cover wire size vs. ampacity.
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Thus my comment, start at the issue, go backwards until you find the least drop and try to fix it.
I agree circuit breakers are a bad thing in general.

Breakers & fuses are to protect the wiring, if they help out equipment, great. DO NOT put in a bigger (higher amp rating breaker/fuse) to "fix" trips. Wiring WILL become a "light bulb" likely causing the insulation to start a fire. Not my idea of a good scene.....

Not sure how "aircraft wire vs. any other wire affects loss", but it's more of a "what will the FAA (or whatever governing body has the say in your country) say about the wire your're using?".
Technically you may exceed the reg's, but that does NOT mean you won't get failed.
Good intentions don't mean bupkiss to the fed's.

Crimp connectors need the proper crimp, my experience is a "Horseshoe crimp" far surpasses any other crimp. Period.
Solid wire is a MAJOR "no-no" unless soldered.
"So sayeth a facilities guy with thousands of connections to monitor". I don't remember ANY crimp connector mfgr (T&B, AMP, Amphenol, etc.) giving a rating for a crimp connector to a solid wire (not to a "semi-solid wire like topcoat copper).

Not picking fights, just trying to lay the groundwork for a good power distribution.

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 5:05:51 PM UTC-4, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello all,

My Becker 4201 just started acting up. Specifically, it has a cyclic regular dead spot when transmitting, so the person listening to you gets about half of each word. It receives just fine, and all functions work as they should. Same thing happens with a fully charged battery or one that has been used for several hours. Has anyone ever run in to this?

Thanks,

3Y

What are you using to test this?
I had a similar problem a few years back
By chance are you using an Icom handheld?

Randy