First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 9:12:19 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 6:28:26 AM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:56:54 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I had inquired directly with Trig on the potential use of the TT21 and the TN72 and this was their response in a message back to me on Dec 7th...

"Thank you for your interest in our TN72 GPS receiver.

The TN72 is compatible with your TT21 transponder and is an ideal choice for your glider.
TABS exists to allow exempt aircraft like yours to participate in ADS-B..
Your TT21 transponder exceeds the technical requirements of TABS and so does not require upgrading.

The TN72 will be shipping in early 2017 and will be available through all Trig dealers."

Renny, thanks. That makes uncommon sense for the rule makers. What happens on a Flarm display that sees both a Flarm and an ADS-B return from a glider? Is Flarm capable of disambiguating the result?

PowerFLARM knows to de-duplicate those targets... if you have properly set up the PowerFLARM to use the ICAO address of your glider, that way the FLARM and ADS-B Out signals will have the same ICAO aircraft address and a receiving PowerFLARM device knows its the same aircraft. That's already used today to suppress Mode-S PCAS alerts for a target glider with Mode-S and PowerFLARM. And that's why PowerFLARM cannot suppress PCAS alerts as well for targets that have Mode C transponders (Mode C does not transmit an ICAO address).

Am Mittwoch, 4. Januar 2017 18:12:19 UTC+1 schrieb jfitch:


... That makes uncommon sense for the rule makers. What happens on a Flarm display that sees both a Flarm and an ADS-B return from a glider? Is Flarm capable of disambiguating the result?

Only if the FLARM ID is set to ICAO-32-bit-address used for the ADS-B out.

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:56:54 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I would think either would be fine. They are almost identical except in power output. There are actually no TABS regulations other than the TSO.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.227

goes on and on about UAT and TSO-166 specifications but doesn't mention TABS.

We will see when more information comes out of Trig. For instance - It would be really nice if the required antenna wasn't larger than the TN72 and more expensive.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 6:46:25 AM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:56:54 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I would think either would be fine. They are almost identical except in power output. There are actually no TABS regulations other than the TSO.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.227

goes on and on about UAT and TSO-166 specifications but doesn't mention TABS.

We will see when more information comes out of Trig. For instance - It would be really nice if the required antenna wasn't larger than the TN72 and more expensive.

Available for preorder

http://www.craggyaero.com/nav_com.htm

First quarter of 2017

More information to follow on website

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

TSO-C166 *is* TABS.

Some of the rest of this stuff has been discussed on r.a.s. before.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
TSO-C166 *is* TABS.

Some of the rest of this stuff has been discussed on r.a.s. before.

What hasn't been discussed on ras before? It is January.

And the TN72 is new, $400 and TSO'd source for ADSB-out.
They were tricky, flipping the digits upside down.

TSO-C199 != TSO-C166

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 5:15:53 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 10:50:13 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
TSO-C166 *is* TABS.

Some of the rest of this stuff has been discussed on r.a.s. before.

What hasn't been discussed on ras before? It is January.

And the TN72 is new, $400 and TSO'd source for ADSB-out.
They were tricky, flipping the digits upside down.

TSO-C199 != TSO-C166

Oops my bad in flipping the 6 and 9. TSO-C166 is UAT, not relevant to TABS TSO-C199.

The TN72 has been discussed on r.a.s in detail before. See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ng/Q8p-zVz7DL8. The actual availability and low price is great news.

It's confusing to say this is a "certified" device, that makes some people incorrectly think it's suitable for use for ADS-B Out to meet 2020 carriage mandates or can be installed in a certified glider today (hopefully that is coming... but there is currently no way to actually do that AFAIK... hopefully something he FAA and manufactures are working on creating an STC for and/or streamlining field approval for).

The price is great news, and anybody interested in ADS-B Out who has an experimental glider and a Trig TT-21 or TT-22 may want to get a TN72 installed before the flying season. better visibility to GA aircraft equipping with ADS-B In and longer-range (than PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM) visibility to other gliders with PowerFLARM.

It seems to me the real benefit of adsb will come when gliders can have a sunlight-readable adsb-traffic display in the panel (I find ipad and iphone displays too hard to read in sunlight). I did find a European instrument that seems promising: its the Funke TM250. It seems to be a combined GPS, adsb-in receiver and panel-mounted traffic display for transponder, flarm and adsb targets. Price is about $1200. I'm not sure if its suitable for the USA, but it shows the sort of combined flarm/adsb plus display instruments that will be coming for gliding. This uncertain future path makes me hesitant to buy a TN72.

Depends on the computer. My 7" screen on the LX9070 displays traffic beautifully, really helps with situational awareness. Traffic is well displayed on many varios too i.e., Butterfly LXnav 80,8, 10,etc.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 2:03:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
It seems to me the real benefit of adsb will come when gliders can have a sunlight-readable adsb-traffic display in the panel (I find ipad and iphone displays too hard to read in sunlight). I did find a European instrument that seems promising: its the Funke TM250. It seems to be a combined GPS, adsb-in receiver and panel-mounted traffic display for transponder, flarm and adsb targets. Price is about $1200. I'm not sure if its suitable for the USA, but it shows the sort of combined flarm/adsb plus display instruments that will be coming for gliding. This uncertain future path makes me hesitant to buy a TN72.

Same with the ClearNav II. ...But all ADS-B targets are displayed with
a B-52 silhouette!

On 1/5/2017 5:52 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Depends on the computer. My 7" screen on the LX9070 displays traffic beautifully, really helps with situational awareness. Traffic is well displayed on many varios too i.e., Butterfly LXnav 80,8, 10,etc.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 2:03:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
It seems to me the real benefit of adsb will come when gliders can have a sunlight-readable adsb-traffic display in the panel (I find ipad and iphone displays too hard to read in sunlight). I did find a European instrument that seems promising: its the Funke TM250. It seems to be a combined GPS, adsb-in receiver and panel-mounted traffic display for transponder, flarm and adsb targets. Price is about $1200. I'm not sure if its suitable for the USA, but it shows the sort of combined flarm/adsb plus display instruments that will be coming for gliding. This uncertain future path makes me hesitant to buy a TN72.

--
Dan, 5J