Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

Trig says the TN72 ($359) and TA70 antenna ($345) will start shipping second quarter of this year. Because I usually fly in busy airspace near New York City, and I rarely fly competitions or with a dozen other gliders, I'm leaning toward this rather than Powerflarm.

My partners and I have just installed an ADS-B out system in our Grumman Cheetah -- a Garmin GTX 335 transponder with associated WAAS antenna. For ADS-B in we are experimenting with an SDR (software defined radio) USB dongle connected to an 8" android tablet running the free Avare app. Avare requires the addition of a second app, Avare ADS-B Pro, which tunes the SDR allowing you to toggle between 1090 and 978 and has a hefty $2.99 price tag. The SDR dongle with included antenna set us back $15. That's the total cost. It appears to work remarkably well.

It seems like this simple, ridiculously affordable system could work well in a glider using a smaller tablet or phone for a display. However, I don't relish the idea of another screen in the cockpit in addition to my Oudie. I wrote to Naviter to see if they would contemplate software for the Oudie that would allow it to display TIS-B and FIS-B, but haven't heard back....

Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

Any further information on using "not certified, but meets the
standards" so that I can install a TN72 and TA70 in my Stemme?

On 2/17/2017 9:44 PM, Paul Villinski wrote:
Trig says the TN72 ($359) and TA70 antenna ($345) will start shipping second quarter of this year. Because I usually fly in busy airspace near New York City, and I rarely fly competitions or with a dozen other gliders, I'm leaning toward this rather than Powerflarm.

My partners and I have just installed an ADS-B out system in our Grumman Cheetah -- a Garmin GTX 335 transponder with associated WAAS antenna. For ADS-B in we are experimenting with an SDR (software defined radio) USB dongle connected to an 8" android tablet running the free Avare app. Avare requires the addition of a second app, Avare ADS-B Pro, which tunes the SDR allowing you to toggle between 1090 and 978 and has a hefty $2.99 price tag. The SDR dongle with included antenna set us back $15. That's the total cost. It appears to work remarkably well.

It seems like this simple, ridiculously affordable system could work well in a glider using a smaller tablet or phone for a display. However, I don't relish the idea of another screen in the cockpit in addition to my Oudie. I wrote to Naviter to see if they would contemplate software for the Oudie that would allow it to display TIS-B and FIS-B, but haven't heard back....

Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

--
Dan, 5J

Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

Assuming you are a fully participating ADSB-out client, TIS-B would be 978Mhz AND 1090es relayed for you. (I think so anyway, in terminal radar environments.)

In that case, either Powerflarm or something like the cheaper $300 TRX-1000 would be able to receive 1090es and feed a common FLARM compatible glider display. Beware though - you would not receive air-air UAT data directly.

If you really need to receive UAT or TIS-B on 978Mhz, you'd need a different receiver. I have read posts on the Stratux ADSB receiver github page about a sw version that emits FLARM formatted strings. This could be connected to LXnav or Oudie, etc. through a USB-to-serial adapter. A bit too experimental for me quite yet.

--Sarah


On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 10:44:40 PM UTC-6, Paul Villinski wrote:
Trig says the TN72 ($359) and TA70 antenna ($345) will start shipping second quarter of this year. Because I usually fly in busy airspace near New York City, and I rarely fly competitions or with a dozen other gliders, I'm leaning toward this rather than Powerflarm.

My partners and I have just installed an ADS-B out system in our Grumman Cheetah -- a Garmin GTX 335 transponder with associated WAAS antenna. For ADS-B in we are experimenting with an SDR (software defined radio) USB dongle connected to an 8" android tablet running the free Avare app. Avare requires the addition of a second app, Avare ADS-B Pro, which tunes the SDR allowing you to toggle between 1090 and 978 and has a hefty $2.99 price tag. The SDR dongle with included antenna set us back $15. That's the total cost. It appears to work remarkably well.

It seems like this simple, ridiculously affordable system could work well in a glider using a smaller tablet or phone for a display. However, I don't relish the idea of another screen in the cockpit in addition to my Oudie. I wrote to Naviter to see if they would contemplate software for the Oudie that would allow it to display TIS-B and FIS-B, but haven't heard back....

Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 9:26:19 AM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

Assuming you are a fully participating ADSB-out client, TIS-B would be 978Mhz AND 1090es relayed for you. (I think so anyway, in terminal radar environments.)

That's not guaranteed. What ADS-B link layer TIS-B is broadcast for a client aircraft on depends on the capability code (CC) data transmitted by the target aircraft. All aircraft with ADS-B Out need to have those CC bits set correctly to match their ADS-B In capabilities.

In that case, either Powerflarm or something like the cheaper $300 TRX-1000 would be able to receive 1090es and feed a common FLARM compatible glider display. Beware though - you would not receive air-air UAT data directly.

No. Unfortunately this is not correct.

The PowerFLARM does not understand how to process a TIS-B (or ADS-R) message. The European unregulated ADS-B environment that PowerFLARM were developed for is the cause of this limitation. I suspect the TRX-1000 has the same limitation. This is an important limitation that pilots need to be aware of, and why I and others have mentioned in on r.a.s. so many times.

If you really need to receive UAT or TIS-B on 978Mhz, you'd need a different receiver. I have read posts on the Stratux ADSB receiver github page about a sw version that emits FLARM formatted strings. This could be connected to LXnav or Oudie, etc. through a USB-to-serial adapter. A bit too experimental for me quite yet.

The most flexible/effective ADS-B In traffic system especially for gliders would use dual-link ADS-B In. Much better than relying on ADS-R and all it's limitations. Unfortunately there is no system that does this today and is compatible with typical glider cockpit systems (e.g. supports Flarm serial dataport protocol to transmit traffic data to a display device)

The Stratux for FLARM protocol stuff was really people tinkering with ideas and I don't think it went anywhere.

--Sarah

In that case, either Powerflarm or something like the cheaper $300 TRX-1000 would be able to receive 1090es and feed a common FLARM compatible glider display. Beware though - you would not receive air-air UAT data directly.

No. Unfortunately this is not correct.

The PowerFLARM does not understand how to process a TIS-B (or ADS-R) message.

Ah, too bad. I did not know TIS-B messages are not properly decoded by Powerflarm. PF must then only correctly parse air-air 1090es squawks. Thanks for the clarification.

On a related question, if someone were to connect an uncertified GPS source to a 1090es transponder, with the intention of appearing on others PF displays.... how often would the transponder send this data? Only when interrogated (ie never, out of Radar coverage/TCAS ping range) or often, for each GPS position string? If the latter, this may have power consumption implications.

The Stratux for FLARM protocol stuff was really people tinkering with ideas and I don't think it went anywhere.

Well it appeared to 'work for them', but I agree... it's too experimental for me yet.


On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 12:56:10 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 9:26:19 AM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

Assuming you are a fully participating ADSB-out client, TIS-B would be 978Mhz AND 1090es relayed for you. (I think so anyway, in terminal radar environments.)

That's not guaranteed. What ADS-B link layer TIS-B is broadcast for a client aircraft on depends on the capability code (CC) data transmitted by the target aircraft. All aircraft with ADS-B Out need to have those CC bits set correctly to match their ADS-B In capabilities.

In that case, either Powerflarm or something like the cheaper $300 TRX-1000 would be able to receive 1090es and feed a common FLARM compatible glider display. Beware though - you would not receive air-air UAT data directly.

No. Unfortunately this is not correct.

The PowerFLARM does not understand how to process a TIS-B (or ADS-R) message. The European unregulated ADS-B environment that PowerFLARM were developed for is the cause of this limitation. I suspect the TRX-1000 has the same limitation. This is an important limitation that pilots need to be aware of, and why I and others have mentioned in on r.a.s. so many times.

If you really need to receive UAT or TIS-B on 978Mhz, you'd need a different receiver. I have read posts on the Stratux ADSB receiver github page about a sw version that emits FLARM formatted strings. This could be connected to LXnav or Oudie, etc. through a USB-to-serial adapter. A bit too experimental for me quite yet.

The most flexible/effective ADS-B In traffic system especially for gliders would use dual-link ADS-B In. Much better than relying on ADS-R and all it's limitations. Unfortunately there is no system that does this today and is compatible with typical glider cockpit systems (e.g. supports Flarm serial dataport protocol to transmit traffic data to a display device)

The Stratux for FLARM protocol stuff was really people tinkering with ideas and I don't think it went anywhere.

--Sarah

On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 11:13:58 AM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
In that case, either Powerflarm or something like the cheaper $300 TRX-1000 would be able to receive 1090es and feed a common FLARM compatible glider display. Beware though - you would not receive air-air UAT data directly.

No. Unfortunately this is not correct.

The PowerFLARM does not understand how to process a TIS-B (or ADS-R) message.

Ah, too bad. I did not know TIS-B messages are not properly decoded by Powerflarm. PF must then only correctly parse air-air 1090es squawks. Thanks for the clarification.

On a related question, if someone were to connect an uncertified GPS source to a 1090es transponder, with the intention of appearing on others PF displays.... how often would the transponder send this data? Only when interrogated (ie never, out of Radar coverage/TCAS ping range) or often, for each GPS position string? If the latter, this may have power consumption implications.

ADS-B Out data is always sent about once per second (well assuming you have it turned on and its working OK). The data sent from even a Mode-S interrtogation is different from the ADS-B 1090ES data.

The Power consumption implication on broadcast are insignificant. The issue of adding GPS to say a current Trig transponder is the power consumption of the GPS itself. Some certified GPS units can have relatively high power consumption. Transponders are being interrogated all the time, by SSR, TCAS and TCAD systems. All that stuff can add to power consumption but the interrogation rates there can be orders of magnitude higher than the ~1/second ADS-B Output.

[snip]

On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 10:56:10 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:

The Stratux for FLARM protocol stuff was really people tinkering with ideas and I don't think it went anywhere.


Yup. It's not ready for non-programmers/hardware geeks.

Andy

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 8:44:40 PM UTC-8, Paul Villinski wrote:

Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

I am watching xcsoar to perhaps be the first.

Using Avare and dongle too. I find they always broadcast the weather even if you are not getting traffic. Very handy when getting home.