Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.

The man didn't want to fight. End of story.



Arthur Kramer

Art, I am pretty sure that almost non of us of tha era wanted to fight. I am
also sure that few of your generation really wanted to either. But we all
served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for but
was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
B-29 development.

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 9:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

The man didn't want to fight. End of story.



Arthur Kramer

Art, I am pretty sure that almost non of us of tha era wanted to fight. I am
also sure that few of your generation really wanted to either. But we all
served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for
but
was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
B-29 development.



I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime. And
many of us felt exactly that way back then. It didn't end and I got there. But
I was very young and idealistic back then..But if I had it to do it all over
again, I would do it the same way.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

But we all
served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for
but
was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
B-29 development.



I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
And
many of us felt exactly that way back then. It didn't end and I got there.
But
I was very young and idealistic back then..But if I had it to do it all over
again, I would do it the same

I am trying to make the point here that I don't think many of us in the late
60s had an overwhelming desire to go to Vietnam and kill other human beings, a
view that had little to do with willingness to serve in a useful capacity
during those days or with courage. I have seen no evidence that Buch didn't
serve in a useful capacity and honorably despite the efforts of some to
distort. What has been proffered as examples appear to me to be pretty much
unexceptional AF documents of the era. You could probably infer the same from
mine as folks have been from those of GWB in my first four years in the AF.

"ArtKramr" wrote

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
or after the war.

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0500, "D. Strang"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
or after the war.


Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."

Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
Some will admit it years after the war.

But warriors WILL do it again and then again. The numbers of warriors
that served multiple tours in combat zones, that served multiple
overseas tours and separations from families, that re-upped and made a
career out of defending an ungrateful nation certainly were more than
willing to do it again.

And, their lives after the war are much more than those of the
pathetic whimperers who think nothing is worth more than self. Those
who kept faith with their brothers in arms walk taller than those who
turned their back on them for the political gains of the moment.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/11/2004 11:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0500, "D. Strang"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the
war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell
you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing
before,
or after the war.


Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."

Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
Some will admit it years after the war.

But warriors WILL do it again and then again. The numbers of warriors
that served multiple tours in combat zones, that served multiple
overseas tours and separations from families, that re-upped and made a
career out of defending an ungrateful nation certainly were more than
willing to do it again.

And, their lives after the war are much more than those of the
pathetic whimperers who think nothing is worth more than self. Those
who kept faith with their brothers in arms walk taller than those who
turned their back on them for the political gains of the moment.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"


We don't agree on much, but we agree on that. Well said.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/11/2004 2:20 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0500, "D. Strang"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the
war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell
you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing
before,
or after the war.


Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."



Amen, Ed. I was scared (a lot) but never admitted it either..

"Ed Rasimus" wrote
"D. Strang" wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
or after the war.


Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."

Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
Some will admit it years after the war.

But warriors WILL do it again and then again. The numbers of warriors
that served multiple tours in combat zones, that served multiple
overseas tours and separations from families, that re-upped and made a
career out of defending an ungrateful nation certainly were more than
willing to do it again.

And, their lives after the war are much more than those of the
pathetic whimperers who think nothing is worth more than self. Those
who kept faith with their brothers in arms walk taller than those who
turned their back on them for the political gains of the moment.

General Yeager tells a story in his book, where one time he was scared to
fly. I'm probably not describing it correctly, as he wasn't scared, he was
sure he was going to die. That's more what I mean. In combat, there are
times when you are sure you are going to die, and maybe scared isn't the
right word, but worrying about your family or fellow soldiers, who will now
have to deal with that.

You have a much better writing skill than I, and agree with everything you've
said here.

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 7/11/2004 11:16 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: Mike Williamson
Date: 7/11/2004 7:57 AM Pac

Since that form doesn't have a date, and according to the first
section, deals with being recalled for non-flying duty, it appears
to deal with inactive duty after going off active duty, and is
therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps the (obviously
objective) owner of the site "awolbush.com" would provide the rest
of the form so that we might see the actual context of the
form?

I'll not hold my breath waiting, if you don't mind...

The volunteering for deployment in the F-102 was covered quite
some time ago- during the 2000 Presidential campaign, as I recall..

Mike



The man didn't want to fight. End of story.



Arthur Kramer

More neo-left logic? If that were the case he was foolish to apply for a flying
slot in a branch that's all about combat aircraft.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

The man didn't want to fight. End of story.

According to Yossarian's doctor, that meant he was sane.