A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old February 16th 18, 05:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.


Airline pilot?

Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience".

Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid."

Kirk
66
(Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it)
  #32  
Old February 16th 18, 06:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

"Fly without an engine?!?!?Â* I like to have an engine up front!" How
many times have I heard that?

Some people don't like roller coasters, either.Â* They also miss out on a
lot of fun.

On 2/16/2018 9:46 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.

Airline pilot?

Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience".

Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid."

Kirk
66
(Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it)


--
Dan, 5J
  #33  
Old February 16th 18, 09:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charles Longley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.

I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at.

The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch.
  #34  
Old February 17th 18, 12:02 AM
Ventus_a Ventus_a is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: May 2010
Posts: 202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Longley View Post
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:07:05 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Quoted text
"Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"

PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING.. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.


Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.
And here's the thing, there are some towpilots I won't fly behind as they are just as dodgy as some of the winch setups you've seen.

All said and done, I aerotow more than I winch launch and will at times take neither and stay on the ground as the quality of the operator (winch driver/towpilot) doesn't inspire confidence.

YMMV
:-) Colin
  #35  
Old February 17th 18, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,550
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:33:47 AM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:

The rule of thumb we use for ab initio winch training is that the number
of flights to solo is your age in years plus 30: I was in my early 50s at
the time.


Aerotow experience is a factor. My anecdotal data point.

Age 62, 250 prior aerotows, I soloed on winch after 28 launches spread over six weeks. I'm not a 'natural pilot'. This was a very relaxed pace. I was in no hurry to solo, and there was excess CFI and glider capacity, and so it was an absolutely no pressure situation.

WRT safety. Concerns about winch mechanical quality, instructor expertise, and winch driver expertise are legit and need to be carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Same deal with the aerotow operations that we normalize.

Winch launching has made me safer on aerotows and overall increased my life expectancy:

1)In case of an aerotow rope break, the trained reflex to push the nose down to recover airspeed before turning carries over from winch to aerotow. I think winch training makes me less likely to spin during the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break. Doing 5-10 'simulated rope breaks' on the winch over a few weeks trains that reflex much better than doing the one 'actual rope break' typical of aerotowing training. Karl S.'s 'zoomie' training exercise (see his description above) might be worthwhile for aerotow training. I'm much more confident about aerotow rope breaks after completing winch training.

2)Winch training is largely about landing from a variety of altitudes, positions and attitudes. It is a great cost effective opportunity to 'tune up' your landing (and outlandings if you winch train at Eagle Field).

3)Winching is FUN. It is part of my recurrent training plan even though I have to travel away from my home area to do it.


  #36  
Old February 17th 18, 03:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,610
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
... training makes me less likely to spin during
the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break.


Why are you going to do a 360???
  #37  
Old February 17th 18, 04:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,550
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:07:39 PM UTC-5, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
... training makes me less likely to spin during
the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break.


Why are you going to do a 360???


Meant 180
  #38  
Old February 17th 18, 12:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 107
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

While writing our training text for our winch endorsement program and looking ahead at new student training we began with many of the same ideas in mind regarding launch failures as stated here. In doing some research we discovered that most accidents originate from this launch failure training. Of course we can't stick our heads in the sand, but maybe there are better ways to train for these failures? Any one who's winched will agree that it's the sudden change in tasks that screws the accident pilot up. With out a well thought plan in mind it's easy to screw up at low altitude following a failure. The zero time student may be at an advantage here. They need dozens of launches to solo and will have more experience generally flying at these lower altitudes than their endorsement counterpart. This is because they will make use of their energy to complete a few turns and even grab a thermal once in a while as part of their training before entering the pattern instead of racing back for the next launch. Consider power pilot training, before flying traffic patterns we fly ground reference maneuvers before countless take offs and landings. But do we pull engines on multi engine students at 50 feet? Do we practice spin recovery at traffic pattern altitude? Winch training could be done with a similar philosophy. The push overs described by Karl are a great example of gaining one of the needed skill sets at a safe altitude. Additionally, an instructor may brief a maneuver to be flown from a prescribed height, say 200, or 400 agl to over fly the runway and fly an abbreviated pattern or land straight ahead. This gives the student the needed experience when the are mentaly ready to take in the information, rather than going "bang" you're at 200 agl! Real Simulated low level failures should still be taught but maybe doing six of them or more isnt needed if the student has other (better) experience at low altitudes and is an unnecessary risk. The BGA and DAeC spent a lot of time and effort looking into this, let's take their advice.
I agree with all of the launch numbers and advice mentioned above about site specific training, aircraft check out and changing weather. I even agree with the Troll above about maintaining the winch and having proper winch operator training and checkout procedures.
On a side note it's a shame in the USA we need to scrape together this type of information. The BGA and DAeC have done an excellent job of caring for their constituents. Each year in the past 5 about 2 new winch operations have started up with more on the way. I strongly recommend modeling your entire winch program after one of these industry leaders rather than making it up based on bits and pieces gathered around to fit your preconceptions. That method has been done to death here in the States...

-Doug
  #39  
Old February 17th 18, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:44:58 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.

I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at.

The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch.


Ok. Sorry I probably came off as a bit of a dick - not intended; but I do find that aviation background seems to have a lot to do with perceived risk/reward in soaring.

I come from a military fighter background - having learned to fly in High School, so tend to see the risks in soaring from a very different perspective. Edge of the envelope is what it is all about, by it's very nature, and that is why it appeals to me; skill, currency, knowledge, training, all need to be up to the task.

Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!", without any winch experience the natural response from someone trained in a highly structured, "middle of the envelope" flying environment" would be "that looks dangerous, what if the winch quits or fails in some way. But the non-intuitive answer is that during a winch launch, the pilot is totally in control of the safety of the launch at all times, and can always make a safe landing! Too slow - release and land straight ahead.. Too fast, dump the nose or release. Cable break, dump the nose and land. Erratic launch by a weak winch or new operator - release and land.

OTOH - aero tows can develop into an unsafe situation without the glider pilot being able to do much about it: loss of power right after takeoff over unlandable terrain; tow pilot determined to take you downwind in a 2-33; slow tow when you are ballasted to the max, etc...

Then there are the ways glider pilots try to kill tow pilots! Hard to hurt a winch launch operator unless you crash on the winch.

Kirk
66
  #40  
Old February 17th 18, 06:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?



On 2/17/2018 9:35 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!"

That was my exact response when offered a flight in a glider.Â* But I
took the flight anyway.Â* And five more and soloed.Â* I haven't looked
back since.
--
Dan, 5J
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The number of registered drone operators exceeds the number of manned aircraft pilots Larry Dighera Piloting 3 July 14th 16 09:41 PM
Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students? Frank Paynter[_2_] Soaring 18 January 30th 12 02:54 PM
Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally? Bruce Soaring 19 July 19th 09 11:45 AM
LIppmann reports a 950 meter winch launch with their Dynatec winch line - anything higher? Bill Daniels Soaring 20 December 27th 04 01:33 AM
Pitts Number 1 registration number Mirco Aerobatics 3 December 4th 04 12:50 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.