Average time to solo a student

I am sure one variable is the aircraft used for instruction. From what I have observed over the years, 25 flights is not unusual with a 2-33, but something more sophisticated like a G-103 might take twice as many. (I am not an Instructor.)

I soloed in 25 in a Grob 103 mk1 taildragger, and I have to say, it set me in great stead, Ive since flown from the wooden ES52 Kookaburra and ES60 Boomerang to Nimbus 4DM and ASH25 &30,
With no difficulty. I later found ASK21 and Blanik particularly easy, with the Puchatek,
IS28B2, DG1000 and Duo discus close behind, all of them easier than the 103 Mk1, infact the only one as bad was the Janus B.
They were known as the concrete swan. The 103 Mk2 with nose wheel was much easier to fly.
I think the person is much more relevant than the glider, and that learning in a more difficult aircraft pays benefits later

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.

I soloed a new student this weekend. snip He snip did a spectacular job.

On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.

Opinions?

Congrats to the new solo pilot!
Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a few fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.

Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 50)
Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
(dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great!)
Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing training toward the rating.


A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch method. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a DG-500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.


me (CindyB change)
6:33 PM (less than a minute ago)
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.

I soloed a new student this weekend. snip He snip did a spectacular job.

On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.

Opinions?

Congrats to the new solo pilot!
Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a few fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.

Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 40)
Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
(dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great! Cuts airtime responsibly.)
Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing training toward the rating.


A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch method. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a DG-500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.

As the CFI-G, you have to believe they will handle whatever comes their way during their solo supervision period. Engine/prop/mast complexities if self-launching. The abruptness of disarray in a botched winch start. The management of slack line and towing position and PT3s of aerotowing - flight as a formation and its necessary communication foibles/weaknesses.

You gave us little insight to allow us to respond with pertinent info. The gentlemen responded generically, appropriately.

Aerotow, once a week, variable weather, motivated reader, 2-33 through fixed gear glass ~30:1, typically 12-14 weeks and 30-35 to solo. But I am known to be thorough on the emergency procedures training.
Straight-ahead break, abbrev pattern 2-3 times from different places, downwind landing in 5-8 kts. That's 4 flights. Sprinkled thru the experience.
Full spoiler locked-open landing. Slip to a landing (no spoilers till touched). A wave-off or two at the top of some tow or other.
It keeps them thinking..... not coasting.

Thanks for being curious. Thanks for teaching.

Cindy Brickner
Mojave, CA

On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:55:12 PM UTC+12, CindyB wrote:
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.


me (CindyB change)
6:33 PM (less than a minute ago)
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.

I soloed a new student this weekend. snip He snip did a spectacular job.

On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.

Opinions?

Congrats to the new solo pilot!
Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a few fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.

Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 40)
Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
(dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great! Cuts airtime responsibly.)
Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing training toward the rating.


A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch method.. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a DG-500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.

As the CFI-G, you have to believe they will handle whatever comes their way during their solo supervision period. Engine/prop/mast complexities if self-launching. The abruptness of disarray in a botched winch start. The management of slack line and towing position and PT3s of aerotowing - flight as a formation and its necessary communication foibles/weaknesses.

You gave us little insight to allow us to respond with pertinent info. The gentlemen responded generically, appropriately.

Aerotow, once a week, variable weather, motivated reader, 2-33 through fixed gear glass ~30:1, typically 12-14 weeks and 30-35 to solo. But I am known to be thorough on the emergency procedures training.
Straight-ahead break, abbrev pattern 2-3 times from different places, downwind landing in 5-8 kts. That's 4 flights. Sprinkled thru the experience.
Full spoiler locked-open landing. Slip to a landing (no spoilers till touched). A wave-off or two at the top of some tow or other.
It keeps them thinking..... not coasting.

Thanks for being curious. Thanks for teaching.

Cindy Brickner
Mojave, CA

A factor you missed. Is soloing:

- ability to safely launch and execute a circuit to landing on a calm windless late afternoon "I FLEW AN AIRCRAFT ALL BY MYSELF!"

OR

- ability to safely launch in active thermic (bumpy and/or a bit of wind) or ridge (definitely some wind) conditions and stay up for half an hour.

?

If you're training towards the latter then you're probably going to fly with the student on days on which they can't yet reasonably practice the launch or approach to progress towards solo, but you can go off and do a bot of actual soaring and even a small cross-country with them. That adds flights and hours to the time before solo.

Is there a contest to see who can send someone solo the fastest?

In the UK the ATC used to send cadets solo in a tiny number of launches,
something like 20 winch launches. They achieved this by cutting out
everything that wasn't essential, including circuit planning and most
emergencies. Thy were solo but that was all.

The civilian clubs took many more launches, it took me 44 which was pretty
average for a teenager, but had been taught stalling and spinning, launch
failures, circuit planning and soaring. As a result my 4th solo was 20
minutes off the wire for my C certificate.

With the current pre solo syllabus it would be a challenge to get
everything covered in 20 aerotows.

What I tend to tell people after I send them solo is "Now you can learn to
fly". That's how it felt to me, and it still does.

Chris

At 05:24 05 June 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:55:12 PM UTC+12, CindyB wrote:
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of
airpla=
ne student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a
C=
FIG.
=20
=20
me (CindyB change) =09
6:33 PM (less than a minute ago)
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of
airpla=
ne student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a
C=
FIG.

I soloed a new student this weekend. He did a spectacula=
r job. =20

On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a
gl=
ider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student
doesn=
't have nearly that many flights.

Opinions?
=20
Congrats to the new solo pilot!
Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a
few=
fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.
=20
Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 40)
Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
(dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great! Cuts airtime
respon=
sibly.)
Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing
tra=
ining toward the rating.
=20
=20
A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch
method=
.. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a
DG-=
500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.
=20
As the CFI-G, you have to believe they will handle whatever comes their
w=
ay during their solo supervision period. Engine/prop/mast complexities if
s=
elf-launching. The abruptness of disarray in a botched winch start. The
ma=
nagement of slack line and towing position and PT3s of aerotowing -
flight
=
as a formation and its necessary communication foibles/weaknesses. =20
=20
You gave us little insight to allow us to respond with pertinent info.
Th=
e gentlemen responded generically, appropriately.
=20
Aerotow, once a week, variable weather, motivated reader, 2-33 through
fi=
xed gear glass ~30:1, typically 12-14 weeks and 30-35 to solo. But I am
kn=
own to be thorough on the emergency procedures training.
Straight-ahead break, abbrev pattern 2-3 times from different
places,
=
downwind landing in 5-8 kts. That's 4 flights. Sprinkled thru the
experienc=
e.
Full spoiler locked-open landing. Slip to a landing (no spoilers till
tou=
ched). A wave-off or two at the top of some tow or other.
It keeps them thinking..... not coasting.
=20
Thanks for being curious. Thanks for teaching.
=20
Cindy Brickner
Mojave, CA

A factor you missed. Is soloing:

- ability to safely launch and execute a circuit to landing on a calm
windl=
ess late afternoon "I FLEW AN AIRCRAFT ALL BY MYSELF!"

OR

- ability to safely launch in active thermic (bumpy and/or a bit of wind)
o=
r ridge (definitely some wind) conditions and stay up for half an hour.

?

If you're training towards the latter then you're probably going to fly
wit=
h the student on days on which they can't yet reasonably practice the
launc=
h or approach to progress towards solo, but you can go off and do a bot
of
=
actual soaring and even a small cross-country with them. That adds
flights
=
and hours to the time before solo.

Always helpful to have some real numbers...

I did an analysis of flights to solo across my club's membership over a period (sample size 155 first solos).

This is a primarily winch launch club. (I think as has been pointed out the number of flights will be less with pure aerotow).

The average was 63. But I don't think the average is very helpful in this discussion given the huge range that it covered - the std deviation was 38.

What was interesting, and contrary to the received wisdom, was that there was a much smaller correlation with age than might have been expected. There were a few outliers, some older people took a very large number of flights, but on the whole there wasn't a great age effect.



Paul

I have to say that after learning on airtow, Im very glad I went on to do several years of winch launching, I learnt very valuable lessons in flying low,
after simulated cable breaks and highly modified circuits. I would recommend it to any glider pilot.
The acceleration can be a bit intmidating at first, but soon becomes your best friend.

On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 5:30:12 PM UTC+10, Chris Rowland wrote:
Is there a contest to see who can send someone solo the fastest?

In the UK the ATC used to send cadets solo in a tiny number of launches,
something like 20 winch launches. They achieved this by cutting out
everything that wasn't essential, including circuit planning and most
emergencies. Thy were solo but that was all.

The civilian clubs took many more launches, it took me 44 which was pretty
average for a teenager, but had been taught stalling and spinning, launch
failures, circuit planning and soaring. As a result my 4th solo was 20
minutes off the wire for my C certificate.

With the current pre solo syllabus it would be a challenge to get
everything covered in 20 aerotows.

What I tend to tell people after I send them solo is "Now you can learn to
fly". That's how it felt to me, and it still does.

Chris

I soloed in November 1972 with the Air Training Corp at RAF No. 1 Gliding School (I think it was called) at RAF Spitalgate, near Grantham in Lincolnshire (home town of one Margaret Thatcher).

I was the slowest of a group of four, all aged around 17. I can't remember the exact number of flights, and I have long lost the logbook, but I seem to recall that we were scheduled for 30 flights and the others made three solos within that; I took an extra half dozen or so to be cleared.

The training was in a Slingsby T-31 (open cockpit, high wing, tandem). It was all done off 1200 ft winch launches and sleigh rides - no lift in the English flatlands at that time of year. The airfield was so large that we never crossed the boundaries.

We definitely did premature launch terminations and stalls, but to this day I still have the image in my mind of what spin training looked like from the front seat. Being young and fearless I knew no better, but I shudder now at the thought of intentionally spinning from circuit height. Granted, a T-31 doesn't lose a lot, but recovering at 600 ft is bit close to the bone....

The winch signalling was done with an Aldis lamp!

My other great memory, apart from the first solo of course, was my third. I did two solos one afternoon and then the day ended. We awoke the next morning to a blanket of snow. It was the end of the course and I thought I'd had it. The instructors said "What's the problem, there's not a breath of wind". So off I went for a check ride followed by a solo circuit and a smooth landing with the skid swishing in the snow. Never done that since.

-tnd

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I have seen a statistic averaged over many solos.

20 starts + 1 for every year over the age of 20 for aerotow

20 starts + 2 for every year over the age of 20 for winch