Js3 jet catastrophic failure.

On 08/31/2018 02:49 PM, wrote:
Better to smell neither fuel or smoke. Engines suck.


Except when you're sitting on the ground on a great soaring day and not
a towplane or towpilot in sight. Then they seem wonderful.

At 20:54 31 August 2018, kinsell wrote:
On 08/31/2018 02:49 PM, wrote:
Better to smell neither fuel or smoke. Engines suck.


Except when you're sitting on the ground on a great soaring day and not
a towplane or towpilot in sight. Then they seem wonderful.

Get out the bungy cords!!!!

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 22:34:10 +0000, Paul T wrote:

At 20:54 31 August 2018, kinsell wrote:
On 08/31/2018 02:49 PM, wrote:
Better to smell neither fuel or smoke. Engines suck.


Except when you're sitting on the ground on a great soaring day and not
a towplane or towpilot in sight. Then they seem wonderful.

Get out the bungy cords!!!!

....or join the winch queue. At my club we've hit 20 launches an hour from
a two-drum winch.

Admittedly that needs a dedicated team (winch driver, cable truck driver,
launch marshal and one or two guys on golf buggies to move gliders on the
ground, but its not difficult to manage 10 launches an hour with a much
smaller team. All that needs is dedicated winch driver and launch marshal
plus help from one or two of the pilots waiting for a launch.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...or join the winch queue....
Admittedly that needs a dedicated team (winch driver, cable truck driver,
launch marshal and one or two guys on golf buggies...

And a site where this is practical, plus enough pilots to
support the operation... All not available in many locales.

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 18:15:06 -0700, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...or join the winch queue....
Admittedly that needs a dedicated team (winch driver, cable truck
driver,
launch marshal and one or two guys on golf buggies...

And a site where this is practical, plus enough pilots to support the
operation... All not available in many locales.

Sure, but from what I see on r.a.s, winching seems to be making some
headway in America.

The minimum launch requirement is three people: winch driver, launch
marshal/wing runner and the glider pilot who, if needed, can tow out the
cable he launches from. IOW, not much different from aero towing except
that nobody in their right mind or half out of it would ever start a
winch launch with a wingtip on the ground.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 3:44:39 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 18:15:06 -0700, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...or join the winch queue....
Admittedly that needs a dedicated team (winch driver, cable truck
driver,
launch marshal and one or two guys on golf buggies...

And a site where this is practical, plus enough pilots to support the
operation... All not available in many locales.

Sure, but from what I see on r.a.s, winching seems to be making some
headway in America.

The minimum launch requirement is three people: winch driver, launch
marshal/wing runner and the glider pilot who, if needed, can tow out the
cable he launches from. IOW, not much different from aero towing except
that nobody in their right mind or half out of it would ever start a
winch launch with a wingtip on the ground.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The cross wind on this thread has blown us on too an entirely different subject, while worthwhile. Course correction: Anyone know the cause of the turbine failure first mentioned in this thread? How much damage was done to the airframe when the engine failed? Have the problems of not starting at altitude been understood and resolved? Has anyone had these failure and care to comment?

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 2:58:31 PM UTC+1, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 3:44:39 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 18:15:06 -0700, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...or join the winch queue....
Admittedly that needs a dedicated team (winch driver, cable truck
driver,
launch marshal and one or two guys on golf buggies...

And a site where this is practical, plus enough pilots to support the
operation... All not available in many locales.

Sure, but from what I see on r.a.s, winching seems to be making some
headway in America.

The minimum launch requirement is three people: winch driver, launch
marshal/wing runner and the glider pilot who, if needed, can tow out the
cable he launches from. IOW, not much different from aero towing except
that nobody in their right mind or half out of it would ever start a
winch launch with a wingtip on the ground.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The cross wind on this thread has blown us on too an entirely different subject, while worthwhile. Course correction: Anyone know the cause of the turbine failure first mentioned in this thread? How much damage was done to the airframe when the engine failed? Have the problems of not starting at altitude been understood and resolved? Has anyone had these failure and care to comment?

High altitude starts - see my earlier replies. The M&D jet is not intended to be started above 10,000 feet asl according to the manual and it starts fine up to at least 9,500 feet asl in my experience as long as a fuel that suits the climate is used. Mine was very unreliable hot on high in SA with Jet A1 and unreliable in cold UK weather on standard diesel but worked 100% until sold in both situations on premium synthetic (gas-to-oil)/mineral diesel (which, for clarity, is not bio-diesel). It was someone from the JS factory that told me a couple of years ago to use Shell V-Power Nitro diesel when I asked for help while in SA as that was what they used.

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 3:44:39 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 18:15:06 -0700, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...or join the winch queue....
Admittedly that needs a dedicated team (winch driver, cable truck
driver,
launch marshal and one or two guys on golf buggies...

And a site where this is practical, plus enough pilots to support the
operation... All not available in many locales.

Sure, but from what I see on r.a.s, winching seems to be making some
headway in America.

The minimum launch requirement is three people: winch driver, launch
marshal/wing runner and the glider pilot who, if needed, can tow out the
cable he launches from. IOW, not much different from aero towing except
that nobody in their right mind or half out of it would ever start a
winch launch with a wingtip on the ground.

I expressed that opinion at one club recently and was told, no we do it regularly.

It might not be too dangerous if the winch technique was adjusted to give an initial acceleration to 20 or 30 knots for a couple of seconds before giving it full noise, possibly in response to an "all out" radio call.

But I got the impression they didn't bother with anything like that.

nobody in their right mind or half out of it would ever start a
winch launch with a wingtip on the ground.

I expressed that opinion at one club recently and was told, no we do it regularly.

It might not be too dangerous if the winch technique was adjusted to give an initial acceleration to 20 or 30 knots for a couple of seconds before giving it full noise, possibly in response to an "all out" radio call.

But I got the impression they didn't bother with anything like that.

Sorry to contribute to thread drift, but I just have to respond.

Launching with a wing tip down is probably the number 1 "NEVER DO" in winch launching. It only takes a brief snag of the down wingtip and the up wingtip will accelerate and fly over the top. The glider becomes a giant hammer with the cockpit as the hammerhead driven into the ground at high speed. When this happens, it is all over in a couple of seconds and is nearly always fatal. Same thing for dropping a wing on a winch launch. Release immediately if a wingtip drops on a winch launch (Should never happen with a properly driven launch as the very rapid acceleration makes the ailerons effective almost immediately).

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 6:44:39 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 18:15:06 -0700, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:11:23 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
...or join the winch queue....
Admittedly that needs a dedicated team (winch driver, cable truck
driver,
launch marshal and one or two guys on golf buggies...

And a site where this is practical, plus enough pilots to support the
operation... All not available in many locales.

Sure, but from what I see on r.a.s, winching seems to be making some
headway in America.

The minimum launch requirement is three people: winch driver, launch
marshal/wing runner and the glider pilot who, if needed, can tow out the
cable he launches from. IOW, not much different from aero towing except
that nobody in their right mind or half out of it would ever start a
winch launch with a wingtip on the ground.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Total subject drift now but I have to respond to that one: I am actively involved in (re)-introducing winching in the US and am trying to teach safe procedures mostly based on the German set of rules. That is an absolute 'No-No' and many fatal accidents have resulted from this!
On the other hand, I should say 'go ahead - do it!' - It may be Darwin at work but it will give winching a bad wrap (again).

Uli
'AS'