Real stats on engine failures?

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
What's "misfueling"?

Putting jet-A in a gasoline burner (or vice-versa).

Ahh, okay. Still, quite uncommon relative to other kinds of engine failure,
especially with respect to in-flight failures.

Peter Duniho wrote:

Ahh, okay. Still, quite uncommon relative to other kinds of engine failure,
especially with respect to in-flight failures.

It'll become a lot more common as the diesels become more common.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
It'll become a lot more common as the diesels become more common.

Could be. We'll see. I suspect it won't be as big a problem as you think.
For sure, some lineboy is going to screw up at some point, but I think the
increased risk of confusion will be mostly mitigated by the fact that owners
of diesel-powered aircraft will be VERY sensitive to the issue and will go
to great lengths to avoid the problem as best they can.

In any case, that time isn't here yet. Even if it does come, I suspect that
we will not see a significant increase in in-flight engine failures as a
result.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" writes:

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
Fuel exhaustion certainly accounts for a lot, but there's also
misfueling, fuel contamination, and intake clogging by widespread
particulates.

What's "misfueling"?

I was thinking of getting a fuel that will not burn effectively in
the plane's engine(s)

Sounds like fuel exhaustion to me.

I welcome suggestions on how I could have stated it more clearly.

As for the others,
you're right to the extent that all engines are run from the same fuel
supply.

Packing ice/ash/... into the _air_ intake has little to do with the
fuel supply. (Again, I think I was not clear.)

Many twins have separate tanks for each engine and may or may not
suffer the same problems.

If the lineman fuels the plane from the wrong (Jet A) truck, it's
unlikely to matter which tanks feed which engines unless you did
not fill all of the tanks.

In any case, the incidence of those failures is extremely low,

Great. I don't need to worry about all of those stories I heard of
getting JetA in an airplane marked "Turbo." Thanks.

The fact remains, having a second engine *does* significantly increase your
chances of an engine failure, just as having extra cylinders increases your
chance of having a cylinder failure. In most cases, it's a worthwhile
tradeoff, but one shouldn't pretend the tradeoff doesn't exist.

Agreed. I don't think anyone pretends the tradeoff doesn't exist.
Some do pretend that it is a linear relationship thus ignoring what
you describe as the most popular failures (along with the others
that I listed).

--kyler

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
Sounds like fuel exhaustion to me.

I welcome suggestions on how I could have stated it more clearly.

Sorry, can't help you there. The screw up was mine.

Packing ice/ash/... into the _air_ intake has little to do with the
fuel supply. (Again, I think I was not clear.)

I don't consider that a "failure" any more than I consider flying into the
side of a mountain a structural failure. Particulates dense enough to shut
down an engine are dense enough that the pilot had no business flying into
them in the first place (or was unfortunate enough to be overtaken by a
cloud).

In any case, the incidence of those failures is extremely low,

Great. I don't need to worry about all of those stories I heard of
getting JetA in an airplane marked "Turbo." Thanks.

I'd hazard a guess that you don't. I've owned my turbocharged aircraft for
nearly ten years now, and have NEVER had any sort of confusion regarding
what kind of fuel it takes. The filler holes are clearly marked 100LL, I
supervise all fueling, and in any case, *real* turbine aircraft don't have
"turbo" written on the side.

I've heard those same stories, but have never seen any evidence that they
were anything more than apocryphal. I can believe it might have happened
once or twice, but it hardly sounds like something that happens often enough
to skew engine failure statistics, especially when one is only considering
in-flight engine failures.

Agreed. I don't think anyone pretends the tradeoff doesn't exist.
Some do pretend that it is a linear relationship thus ignoring what
you describe as the most popular failures (along with the others
that I listed).

Well, even ignoring the factors you've mentioned, it's not actually a linear
relationship. It's just *nearly* linear, near enough that the
generalization is reasonably true. The other factors that you've mentioned
don't really change that relationship, IMHO. It's still *nearly* true, just
as it is without considering them.

Bottom line: the more stuff you have, the more likely something will go
wrong with some of your stuff.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote:

The filler holes are clearly marked 100LL

Aren't the filler holes restricted to prevent entry of a standard size Jet A
nozzle? I could swear USAIG was offering me some inducement to install such
restrictors, except that they're already standard on my aircraft.

"Craig Prouse" wrote in message
...
The filler holes are clearly marked 100LL

Aren't the filler holes restricted to prevent entry of a standard size Jet
A
nozzle?

Perhaps they could be. I don't know. I've never tried to put a Jet A
nozzle in any of the filler holes on my airplane. I don't even know what
one looks like.

I *can* say that the filler holes on my airplane are a LOT larger than the
usual 100LL nozzle and they don't have any special restrictor built in.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
It'll become a lot more common as the diesels become more common.

Could be. We'll see. I suspect it won't be as big a problem as you think.
For sure, some lineboy is going to screw up at some point,

Good reason to fuel the airplane yourself. If nothing else this gives
you a double check to make sure it is really fuled. It may be
impractical to supervise the bolting on the cylinders but you can the
fuel and (lack of) fuel is a lot more likely to be a problem.

"Peter Duniho" writes:

Packing ice/ash/... into the _air_ intake has little to do with the
fuel supply. (Again, I think I was not clear.)

I don't consider that a "failure" any more than I consider flying into the
side of a mountain a structural failure. Particulates dense enough to shut
down an engine are dense enough that the pilot had no business flying into
them in the first place (or was unfortunate enough to be overtaken by a
cloud).

Make sure I have this straight...

If an engine stops (against the pilot's wishes) in flight becuase it
can no longer get fuel, that's "engine failure". If it stops because
it can no longer get air, that's just "pilot error"?

--kyler

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
If an engine stops (against the pilot's wishes) in flight becuase it
can no longer get fuel, that's "engine failure". If it stops because
it can no longer get air, that's just "pilot error"?

Yes and no. It depends on why the engine can no longer get fuel. The most
common reason for an engine to be starved of fuel is that the pilot didn't
bring enough fuel along for the trip. This is pilot error. I already made
it clear that I realize this is one of the most common reasons for an engine
failure and that my comments regarding the statistics of engine failures
exclude engine failures due to fuel exhaustion.

Likewise, my comments regarding the statistics of engine failures exclude
engine failures due to a pilot flying into something that causes the air
intake to become clogged.

My comments are specifically targeted at genuine *failures*. That is,
something broke. There are plenty of reasons an engine might stop running,
but not all of them are pertinent to a reliability analysis discussing
failure rates and statistical chances of failure. You seem to keep trying
to introduce irrelevent types of engine failures, while I try to make clear
what it is I'm talking about.

Maybe I haven't been clear enough, but hopefully you're starting to get the
idea of what I'm actually talking about.

Pete