Fuel tank balance

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I was thinking on having the engine quit on roll out, but one is just
a foolish as the other. :-)) The amount of adrenalin might be
different though.

See

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...bob_hoover.avi

He apparently prefers to fly without engines.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Roger wrote:
You could but I was climbing out at something like a 100 MPH and 30 to
50 feet above a 3800 foot runway.

Well, one could argue that your options there aren't that many...
Basically look in front of you and try to hit the softer objects if at
all possible... If you do everything right, maybe you'll get it back
down and stopped before the end of the runway... Even better, maybe
the plane will be reusable afterwards... It's not like you're going to
try to do a 180 at that altitude...

If I ever do make such a mistake I can guarantee I'll not be flying a
normal pattern:-)) However being paranoid about fuel it's highly
unlikely I'll face such a situation unless a tank or fuel line breaks.

Nothing quite as loud as that deafening silence of the engine not
running... I had that once at 14,500 ft... It was so loud that it woke
me up... Yeah, there's probably a good reason why you should have
supplemental O2 at that altitude...

Oh! I forgot about the day it quit on a missed approach at roughly 400
feet. Before the instructor could holler, "Left tank Rog! LEFT TANK!"
I had already switched.

I was thinking back to see when was the last time I botched a landing
so bad that I needed to go around... On runways with sufficient length,
I suspect it was probably around 8 years ago, probably not too long
after I had bought my Grumman... Since then, there have been a few
airports that had rather short runways and it might take a couple of
tries to get to the point where I was positive that I would be able to
get it down at the very start of the runway and stopped by the end of
the runway... There was one little grass strip up in Iowa (7IA3) that
at 2100 ft sure did seem short the first time I went in there and I
probably did a few flybys trying to get lined up just right for it, but
given any runway at least 3000 ft in length, I don't think I've had any
cases where I needed to go around because I botched the landing in
probably the last 8 years... Yeah, there's been the occasional case of
having to go around because someone didn't clear the runway quick
enough (even though I would have been stopped before getting to where
they were located)... As such, I suspect that starting at 2000 ft above
the runway and in the middle of the airport, I should not have a
problem getting a good landing out of it... Most of my landings consist
of turning final and still being at 1000 ft, pulling power back to idle
at that point, and not adding power until I need to taxi after
landing... Getting from 2000 ft to 1000 ft and being on final at that
point should be doable... Hmmm... Sounds like a good excuse to go
practice some... Not that I ever expect to run out of fuel at 2000 ft
above the center of an airport... grin

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:21:34 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I was thinking on having the engine quit on roll out, but one is just
a foolish as the other. :-)) The amount of adrenalin might be
different though.

See

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...bob_hoover.avi

I've seen Bob do his engine out maneuvers many times. He knew that
airplane, its limits and its requirements. He probably remembers more
about that airplane (which is now at the Smithsonian as I understand)
than I've ever known about the Deb. He used to read these news groups
but I've not seen him for a while.

Bob is a normal down-to-earth sort with a great sense of humor and an
ability to help with a wealth of ideas.


He apparently prefers to fly without engines.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:21:34 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:


Roger (K8RI) writes:


I was thinking on having the engine quit on roll out, but one is just
a foolish as the other. :-)) The amount of adrenalin might be
different though.

See

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...bob_hoover.avi


I've seen Bob do his engine out maneuvers many times. He knew that
airplane, its limits and its requirements. He probably remembers more
about that airplane (which is now at the Smithsonian as I understand)S
The Shrike it at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy center of the National Air and
Space Museum, Smithsonian Institution. Very few visitors look at that
aircraft and think aerobatics. Bob Hoover is probably the best example
of energy conservation I've ever seen. Flying that aircraft, the way he
did was exceptional.

than I've ever known about the Deb. He used to read these news groups
but I've not seen him for a while.

Bob is a normal down-to-earth sort with a great sense of humor and an
ability to help with a wealth of ideas.
His wife Colleen makes him seem boring and mundane. She is quite fun.


He apparently prefers to fly without engines.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 28 Sep 2006 21:25:12 -0700, "Grumman-581"
wrote:

Roger wrote:
You could but I was climbing out at something like a 100 MPH and 30 to
50 feet above a 3800 foot runway.

Well, one could argue that your options there aren't that many...

That they could.

Basically look in front of you and try to hit the softer objects if at
all possible... If you do everything right, maybe you'll get it back
down and stopped before the end of the runway... Even better, maybe
the plane will be reusable afterwards... It's not like you're going to
try to do a 180 at that altitude...

That altitude is probably low enough to discourage even the most
panicked from trying to turn back. :-)) OTOH I'd not hesitate to take
a slight and shallow turn to keep it on the airport if I could do it
with out digging in a wing. Better to wipe out the gear or underside
and remain in control than turn into a cartwheeling ball of fire.


If I ever do make such a mistake I can guarantee I'll not be flying a
normal pattern:-)) However being paranoid about fuel it's highly
unlikely I'll face such a situation unless a tank or fuel line breaks.

Nothing quite as loud as that deafening silence of the engine not
running... I had that once at 14,500 ft... It was so loud that it woke

I'm not so sure. I thought I had some one in the back seat beating on
a drum until I realized it was my pulse in my ears. :-))

me up... Yeah, there's probably a good reason why you should have
supplemental O2 at that altitude...

Oh! I forgot about the day it quit on a missed approach at roughly 400
feet. Before the instructor could holler, "Left tank Rog! LEFT TANK!"
I had already switched.

I was thinking back to see when was the last time I botched a landing
so bad that I needed to go around... On runways with sufficient length,

This wasn't a go around, but rather the missed after doing the ILS
down to DH which was 200 AGL at the MM. This was after more than 3
hours of shooting approaches at three different airports. NDB,
Localizer only, VOR, ILS, and partial panel. Seems like we did a PAR
some where in there as well.

I suspect it was probably around 8 years ago, probably not too long
after I had bought my Grumman... Since then, there have been a few
airports that had rather short runways and it might take a couple of
tries to get to the point where I was positive that I would be able to
get it down at the very start of the runway and stopped by the end of
the runway... There was one little grass strip up in Iowa (7IA3) that
at 2100 ft sure did seem short the first time I went in there and I

2100 is plenty to get into and out of with the 260 HP engine in the
Deb. It's a very good short field plane with big wings and about the
same wing loading as a Cherokee.

probably did a few flybys trying to get lined up just right for it, but
given any runway at least 3000 ft in length, I don't think I've had any
cases where I needed to go around because I botched the landing in
probably the last 8 years... Yeah, there's been the occasional case of
having to go around because someone didn't clear the runway quick
enough (even though I would have been stopped before getting to where
they were located)... As such, I suspect that starting at 2000 ft above
the runway and in the middle of the airport, I should not have a
problem getting a good landing out of it... Most of my landings consist
of turning final and still being at 1000 ft, pulling power back to idle

In the Deb you typically don't do power off landings as they are
faster than power on, shallower, and use a *lot* more runway. Close
to twice as much without using short field techniques and even then
they are longer than the power on short field.

at that point, and not adding power until I need to taxi after
landing... Getting from 2000 ft to 1000 ft and being on final at that
point should be doable... Hmmm... Sounds like a good excuse to go
practice some... Not that I ever expect to run out of fuel at 2000 ft
above the center of an airport... grin

I really didn't run out of fuel in either case. In the one I only had
to switch tanks. In the other case the diaphragm in the spider on top
of the engine had blown and all the fuel was spraying all over that
hot engine. You can put a lot of fuel through a 1/4" diameter hole at
close to 16 PSI in a hurry.

I'd really like to thank who ever was my instructor at the ASF/ABS Bo
specific pilot proficiency training for beating that failed engine
process into my head, over and over and over and over...etc. When the
engine quit I didn't even have to stop to think or consciously
recognize what had happened or what to do. It was like being on
autopilot. Before I could have even stated to some one else what had
happened I had shut off the fuel, recognized I could not make the
highway, "picked a spot", hit full flaps and set up for a short field
power off landing. With 3800 feet of runway, I had rotated, climbed to
about 50 feet while accelerating to 100 MPH, had an engine failure,
lowered the flaps, landed, had barely enough energy to make the
taxiway in front of the terminal and had about 1200 feet of runway
left. (or possibly a tad more)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I've seen Bob do his engine out maneuvers many times. He knew that
airplane, its limits and its requirements. He probably remembers more
about that airplane (which is now at the Smithsonian as I understand)
than I've ever known about the Deb. He used to read these news groups
but I've not seen him for a while.

What kind of aircraft did he use? I'm not good at recognizing small
aircraft. It certainly was surprising to see what he did with it; I
didn't think that such aircraft could do that.

There's another video on the same site of a small aircraft that snaps
its wings off pulling too many g's, which proves that airframes can be
overstressed. Both wings snap at the same time, which at least
implies that they were consistently engineered.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:21:34 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) writes:

I was thinking on having the engine quit on roll out, but one is just
a foolish as the other. :-)) The amount of adrenalin might be
different though.

See

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...bob_hoover.avi

I've seen Bob do his engine out maneuvers many times. He knew that
airplane, its limits and its requirements. He probably remembers more
about that airplane (which is now at the Smithsonian as I understand)
than I've ever known about the Deb. He used to read these news groups
but I've not seen him for a while.

Bob is a normal down-to-earth sort with a great sense of humor and an
ability to help with a wealth of ideas.


He apparently prefers to fly without engines.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I never got to see Bob Hoover perform in person, but have seen video, and he
is amazing, esecially the manuever where they show him pouring water into a
glass during a loop... Really cool.

If you have get a chance to see Kent Pietsch perform, do it. He is from
Minot, ND, and does an aerbatic engine out routine from about 6000' in an
Interstate Kadet, and all during this there is person standing on the
taxiway, and when he lands he puts the spinner of the plane right in the
person's hand. Good demonstration of "Energy Management". :-)

He also has a little comedy routine that he does that involves the aileron
falling off in the beginning, and flies in a way that you go "Wow... To fly
that 'badly' you must really have to work at it... :-)" I saw him perform
at the Abbotsford Airshow this year in Abbotsford, B.C. The link below is
to a video he has on his site for the comedy routine from a few years ago at
the Chilliwack Airshow in Chilliwack, B.C. (there is no video of the engine
out routine)
http://www.pietschaircraft.com/gallery/comedy_movie.php

-Wade Hasbrouck
PP-ASEL
http://wadehas.spaces.live.com

Mxsmanic wrote:
\

What kind of aircraft did he use? I'm not good at recognizing small
aircraft. It certainly was surprising to see what he did with it; I
didn't think that such aircraft could do that.

That's a Shrike. As mentioned earlier, it currently resides in the
Udvar-Hazy center. Unlike most aircraft that arrived there, Bob
actually taxiied it into the building.

There's another video on the same site of a small aircraft that snaps
its wings off pulling too many g's, which proves that airframes can be
overstressed. Both wings snap at the same time, which at least
implies that they were consistently engineered.


That was a Partenavia. Also a high wing twin. Not just overstressed
but repeatedly overstressed. Airshow aircraft need special continual
attention.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message
...
2100 is plenty to get into and out of with the 260 HP engine in the
Deb. It's a very good short field plane with big wings and about the
same wing loading as a Cherokee.

I tend to fly 85 kts on short final... Quite a bit faster if I'm going into
HOU with a 737 basically on my tail... I figure that if I get down first,
*he's* the one who has to worry about *my* wingtip vortices, not the other
way around... grin

I can get into a 2100 ft field, but it took me a could of tries to get lined
up so that I was going to touch down at the very start of the runway instead
of just flaring and floating for too long... Basically, I guess I had to get
comfortable with the sight picture that I was getting... I've actually
gotten into a shorter runway before, but it was paved and as such, my brakes
actually made a difference...

In the Deb you typically don't do power off landings as they are
faster than power on, shallower, and use a *lot* more runway. Close
to twice as much without using short field techniques and even then
they are longer than the power on short field.

Hmmm... Sounds like you might end up short of the runway if you lose your
engine while on approach... It's one thing to crash out in the middle of
nowhere, it seems like it would be rather embarassing when the report said
you *nearly* made it to the runway...

Mxsmanic wrote:
Roger (K8RI) writes:


I've seen Bob do his engine out maneuvers many times. He knew that
airplane, its limits and its requirements. He probably remembers more
about that airplane (which is now at the Smithsonian as I understand)
than I've ever known about the Deb. He used to read these news groups
but I've not seen him for a while.


What kind of aircraft did he use? I'm not good at recognizing small
aircraft. It certainly was surprising to see what he did with it; I
didn't think that such aircraft could do that.

Shrike

There's another video on the same site of a small aircraft that snaps
its wings off pulling too many g's, which proves that airframes can be
overstressed. Both wings snap at the same time, which at least
implies that they were consistently engineered.