Old, but interesting topic

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

You don;t fly. The engines on your airplane don't exist because there is no
airplane, no flying and no real skill involved.

Are you familiar with Pavlov's work?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Why not?
It autotunes the frequency and selects the inbound course of the
approach you have selected, it does about 20 miles out.

You can override it anytime, you check it during your approach
briefing.
It does not follow it unless you arm the approach on the panel.

I don't see any problem with it, as with anything on the aircraft
you
have the ultimate control, I let the autopilot fly the aircraft most
of
the time, but I always monitor what it does.
Well, you have to.. obviously. They do strange things from time to
time..

Didn't mean to suggest you didn't. But the way you said it sounded
like
you would let it nav onto the ils and fly it off it's own bat not
using
the ILS at all, just it's own input like an LNAV non precision.
We don't even allow LNAV intercepts of ILS's. We always intercept
from
heading select, though we do allow a glidepath intercept from vnav
from
below. I wouldn't trust the fjukkwit to do that, though. I wouldn't
let
him use a toaster, in fact.



Bertie
Well I agree not to trust it blindly, computers are computers.

True that most of the time you intercept using heading mode, most of
the
time you are on radar vectors.

But when you are not on vectors and you are using the nav fuction to
follow the STAR, you can leave the panel on NAV, the FMS will autotune
the ILS frequency, set the imbound track, as the LOC comes alive the
flght director will switch to "green data" intercept the LOC and the
Glide path using the navaid. All that can be done on autopilot.
As I said, all the time the pilot will monitor it, and of course
manual
intervention is still needed to configure the aircraft and ultimately
to
land it.

No, I can't do that. For one thig, it's company policy we don't do it in
any of our airplanes, and for another, the possibility of a parralell
intercept due to even a minute amount of map shift is too great, so I
just wouldn't..

Bertie

Well, company policy is one thing, what the technology can do is another.
The map shift has nothing to do with it, the FD will intercept the
localizer signal and follow is just as it would if you would tune it
manually and intercept it on heading select.
As you intercept the LOC you will not be using the FMS commands anymore
but the navaid signal.

Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Why not?
It autotunes the frequency and selects the inbound course of the
approach you have selected, it does about 20 miles out.

You can override it anytime, you check it during your approach
briefing.
It does not follow it unless you arm the approach on the panel.

I don't see any problem with it, as with anything on the aircraft
you
have the ultimate control, I let the autopilot fly the aircraft
most
of
the time, but I always monitor what it does.
Well, you have to.. obviously. They do strange things from time to
time..

Didn't mean to suggest you didn't. But the way you said it sounded
like
you would let it nav onto the ils and fly it off it's own bat not
using
the ILS at all, just it's own input like an LNAV non precision.
We don't even allow LNAV intercepts of ILS's. We always intercept
from
heading select, though we do allow a glidepath intercept from vnav
from
below. I wouldn't trust the fjukkwit to do that, though. I wouldn't
let
him use a toaster, in fact.



Bertie
Well I agree not to trust it blindly, computers are computers.

True that most of the time you intercept using heading mode, most of
the
time you are on radar vectors.

But when you are not on vectors and you are using the nav fuction to
follow the STAR, you can leave the panel on NAV, the FMS will
autotune the ILS frequency, set the imbound track, as the LOC comes
alive the flght director will switch to "green data" intercept the
LOC and the Glide path using the navaid. All that can be done on
autopilot. As I said, all the time the pilot will monitor it, and of
course
manual
intervention is still needed to configure the aircraft and
ultimately
to
land it.

No, I can't do that. For one thig, it's company policy we don't do it
in any of our airplanes, and for another, the possibility of a
parralell intercept due to even a minute amount of map shift is too
great, so I just wouldn't..

Bertie

Well, company policy is one thing, what the technology can do is
another. The map shift has nothing to do with it, the FD will
intercept the localizer signal and follow is just as it would if you
would tune it manually and intercept it on heading select.

no it won't, not if it intercepts the FMC track first and thats not in
the same place as the runway.


As you intercept the LOC you will not be using the FMS commands
anymore but the navaid signal.


IF you intercept it. That's the point and that's why we don't allow it.
We also consider it to be good practice pilot machine interface.
You're more in theh loop. Hdg sel only comes on when you're within a few
miles of interception if you're not already on it.


Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

You don;t fly. The engines on your airplane don't exist because there
is no airplane, no flying and no real skill involved.

Are you familiar with Pavlov's work?

Obviously.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

ILS freqs won't autotune on anything I know of..
Then you don't know of all FMCs, because some FMCs will definitely
autotune the ILS. The 747-400 will do this (in fact, it autotunes
all the navaids, although you can override this).
All FMCs tune navaids fjukkktard, but none do autoapproaches,
fjukkwit.


Bertie
Sorry to disagree again, but the latest FMS can tune the ILS
frequency and set the imbound track.

RTFP. If you set up your FMC, clever as you like, punched your toga
switches and jumped out of the airplane, would it land at your
destination?

I'm guessing "no".


Bertie




Bertie
Well I believe we were not talking about take off here.
But once airborne, lets say in cruise........if FMS programmed,
including RWY and APPCH, set on VNAV, APPCH preselected and altitude
selector set to RWY elevation..... well I guess pretty much yes.
Of course gear and flaps will not be set by the aircraft itself, so it
would be a pretty interesting landing ;-) but it would definetely hit
the runway at destination.


Mm, don't think so. Haven't flown on of your fartboxes, but I've flown
'Busses and everythign but the very latest boeing (777) and haven't seen
anything that would do that even onm a good day without a lot of
assistance from a pilot.


Bertie


Well I believed we were having a good technical and operational
conversation here, but if you are resorting on making fun of other
people equipment, getting into the big against smaller aircraft type of
talk, well I guess we won't go far.
I believe that any of the latest equipments can, if correctly
programmed, fly from cruise level, all the way down to intercecept the
ILS then crash land on the runway without any intervention.
From cruise program the FPL, the STAR, the appch, set RWY elevation,
VNAV and then just sit back and not touch the controls till over the RWY.
I'll of course have to configure flaps and gear, but other than that.
Of course this does not take into account request from ATC.

But should ATC clear me all the way from FL450 to landing then I could
do that.

I'm pretty sure the latest Airbus and Boeing can do that too.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Global Express? Would that be th eGlobal Express X3000A2, or the
Global Express X3000C5? That's a modern derivit\ive of th eold
Speedbird 500, isn't it?





Bertie

That would be the Bombardier Global Express, long range business
aircraft.


OOoW kewl. Pinstripes? Big boombox inside?

Bertie

Well, again if you have to resort to this kind of behavior the
conversation will not go very far, too bad, I was enjoying it.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Bertie
Well, company policy is one thing, what the technology can do is
another. The map shift has nothing to do with it, the FD will
intercept the localizer signal and follow is just as it would if you
would tune it manually and intercept it on heading select.

no it won't, not if it intercepts the FMC track first and thats not in
the same place as the runway.


It will NOT, intercept, never, the FMC track, again as the LOC becomes
alive the FD will drop the FMC(switch from FMC guidance to navaids) and
intercept the LOC, the signal from the navaid, the FMC will again come
online only if you select it or if you select TOGA.


As you intercept the LOC you will not be using the FMS commands
anymore but the navaid signal.


IF you intercept it. That's the point and that's why we don't allow it.
We also consider it to be good practice pilot machine interface.
You're more in theh loop. Hdg sel only comes on when you're within a few
miles of interception if you're not already on it.


Bertie

If the ILS is working you will definetely intercept it, there is
absolutely no difference if you intercept following the FMC guidance or
if you are on heading, you will intercept the ILS signal fro the navaid
on the ground.

You are always monitoring the instruments and the FMC and autopilot, or
at least I am. I don't believe you fly with the autopilot on, in any
phase of the flight without monitoring it

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:33:17 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

That's rubbish. You said the FMC is programmed from the start
(Incorrect, the approach is usually input en-route, but never
mind).
The approach can be entered into the FMC at any time.
No, it can't, fjukktard


Bertie
Well actually it can, even before take off

Can't be entered at all. Now way anything flying will do an ILS all
by
it's lonesomes from takeoff just by using the FMC.


Bertie

Sorry I have to disagree, an approach can be entered before T/O, in
the
latest FMS it will autotune, and if approach is preselected on the
panel
it will auto tranfer to "green data" and fly the ILS appch.


ILS freqs won't autotune on anything I know of..

FWIW, they can on a 74, 76, or 77 with that carrier-option enabled.
Course, someone still has to engage APR mode and the other 2
autopilots if that carrier option isn't enabled, but I digress.....

"ManhattanMan" wrote in message
...
Darkwing" theducksmail"AT wrote:

Not even Google will be MX's friend...



Smart. Bet he don't have a dog either..........


He probably ties a pork chop around his neck so he can simulate that
relationship too.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Iain Smith writes:

Nothing because that wasn't what you said. You weren't talking about mean
time between failures (in case you thought I didn't understand), you
stated
that jet engines (implicity individual units within the context of this
thread) could run for hundreds of thousands of hours without failure.
This
is patently not true and has not happened yet.

The alleged fact that it hasn't happened doesn't prove that it cannot.
And
how do you know it hasn't happened? Is someone keeping track of the
worldwide
record for running time between failures?


Holy crap! Are you really that stupid? Do you have no idea how much data is
maintain or EVERY jet engine flying?