Survivability in Combat

Stephen Harding wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote:

Dan, he's said that he's flown fighters, and that the Fellowship is a real
organization......the only thing notable by its absence is his identification
with any of the military branches, foreign or domestic. But, since he
doesn't want to talk about it any more, my personal guess is that he was a
test pilot for Chance-Vought or Republic or some such and is a little
embarrassed by his failure to wear the uniform. Google has found a lot of
stuff with his name on it, but absent in every one of them is any reference
to military service.

Given my "collision" with him earlier this year and a little "lecture" on
"only military people can understand", he'd damn well *better* have a
military background!

I'd presumed he was military (F-102?) with non-combat experience.

My conclusion, therefore, is that he didn't have any and, by so pointedly
trying to avoid mention of the subject, only succeeded in having us become
aware of what he'd rather we not know about him.

In any case, he's quite obviously quite knowledgable about flying fighter
aircraft and, phony or not, has much to offer his fellow members of RAM on
those subjects, and it would undoubtedly not be in our best interests to run
him off for that minor lack. After all, we can't all be heroes like us
Troop Carrier pilots, can we? (^-^)))

And my Dad! (22nd TCS in Japan by retirement; I'd always read those MATS guys
could fly circles around the SAC boys!!)

This is a military aviation NG so anything about the subject is valid.
Personalities, planes, policies and experiences.

Dudley has a lot of good stuff to say about this subject, and until someone
exposes him as a phony, he'll have high credibility for me in this subject.

You don't have to like the guy or think much of his personality to like what
he writes.

That said, shall we move on?

Geez George, we agree for once!!

Yup. BTW, in an earlier life, I was in a tenant outfit at Tachikawa flying
C-46s (344th TCS) up until we transitioned Japanese pilots into the birds and
transferred them to the Japan Air Self Defense Force towards the end of '58.
Seems to me that the 374 TCG had three flying squadrons then.....one flying
C-54s and the other two (the 21st and 22nd TCS) flying Big Shaky (C-124s).

Your comment about us MATS (actually, 315th ADiv) guys flying circles around
those guys with our eyes closed was well taken. We often did that quite
literally! Not too hard to do when you have another guy up front with you.
(^-^)))

George Z.


SMH

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. com...
monkey wrote:
Like I said before, dud, you shouldn't be in any fellowship for
"fighter pilots" unless that's what you are/were.


Therein lies the conundrum: were you a fighter pilot if you flew P-51s
on
the
airshow circuit? The Mustang was most definitely a fighter. Were you
only a
fighter pilot if you flew fighters for a military service? Or only if
you've
fired your guns in anger?

This seems to be a grey area to me.

It might just be a little "grayer" than you imagine!! :-)))

Please allow me to give some of you "interested people" who are
commenting
on my life........a little hint on a few "things" if I might inject some
fact into all this fantasy please...... :-)
I'm afraid my association with the fighter community has little to do with
the flying of warbirds per se'. It is more directly involved with over
fifty years of association with the fighter community dealing with such
issues as the enhancement of flight safety and additional issues directly
of
interest to the community.
Although my association with the fighter community is honorary, I must
admit
that I has "honored" to be asked by that community to serve as the
President
of it's Fellowship; then first as the Maryland State Director ; then as
the
Regional Director of the Combat Pilots Association of the United States. I
was equally "honored" to be asked to narrate the flight demonstrations of
both the prototype YF17 Cobra AND the F14 Tomcat by both the Navy and
Northrop's demonstration test team. I was "honored" to do research test
flying in both the F14 and the T38. I was also "honored" to be asked to
fly
with the Canadian Snowbirds. I have also been "honored" to work within the
fighter community on many issues pertaining to the testing of high
performance aircraft. I am "honored" to have my name and bio appear in the
official book on the history of the P51Mustang along side those who flew
her
in harm's way. I have been "honored" by the Naval Test Pilot School being
asked to attend their reunions, but I believe I was "honored" most when
the
Thunderbirds invited my wife and I down to Andrews AFB to celebrate my
"retirement" as a pilot with them. This "official occasion" was celebrated
in the preflight brief with the team all signing the last page of a
logbook
dedicated to a lifetime's work in the air.
I remain to this day, involved with work dedicated to the saving of lives
within the fighter community as a consultant.
I'm deeply sorry that some of you fine folks on Usenet don't think I
should
identify myself with the fighter community since I'm not technically a
fighter pilot, but if you folks REALLY don't object too much, I think I'll
just accept my association with the community as it is, and continue to
enjoy the mutual respect I have shared with the fighter community all
through my aviation career.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Well said, Dudley....Perhaps this will put an end this matter !

Regards, BMC

"Brian Colwell" wrote in message
news:uinBb.619639$6C4.13587@pd7tw1no...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. com...
monkey wrote:
Like I said before, dud, you shouldn't be in any fellowship for
"fighter pilots" unless that's what you are/were.


Therein lies the conundrum: were you a fighter pilot if you flew
P-51s
on
the
airshow circuit? The Mustang was most definitely a fighter. Were you
only a
fighter pilot if you flew fighters for a military service? Or only if
you've
fired your guns in anger?

This seems to be a grey area to me.

It might just be a little "grayer" than you imagine!! :-)))

Please allow me to give some of you "interested people" who are
commenting
on my life........a little hint on a few "things" if I might inject some
fact into all this fantasy please...... :-)
I'm afraid my association with the fighter community has little to do
with
the flying of warbirds per se'. It is more directly involved with over
fifty years of association with the fighter community dealing with such
issues as the enhancement of flight safety and additional issues
directly
of
interest to the community.
Although my association with the fighter community is honorary, I must
admit
that I has "honored" to be asked by that community to serve as the
President
of it's Fellowship; then first as the Maryland State Director ; then as
the
Regional Director of the Combat Pilots Association of the United States.
I
was equally "honored" to be asked to narrate the flight demonstrations
of
both the prototype YF17 Cobra AND the F14 Tomcat by both the Navy and
Northrop's demonstration test team. I was "honored" to do research test
flying in both the F14 and the T38. I was also "honored" to be asked to
fly
with the Canadian Snowbirds. I have also been "honored" to work within
the
fighter community on many issues pertaining to the testing of high
performance aircraft. I am "honored" to have my name and bio appear in
the
official book on the history of the P51Mustang along side those who flew
her
in harm's way. I have been "honored" by the Naval Test Pilot School
being
asked to attend their reunions, but I believe I was "honored" most when
the
Thunderbirds invited my wife and I down to Andrews AFB to celebrate my
"retirement" as a pilot with them. This "official occasion" was
celebrated
in the preflight brief with the team all signing the last page of a
logbook
dedicated to a lifetime's work in the air.
I remain to this day, involved with work dedicated to the saving of
lives
within the fighter community as a consultant.
I'm deeply sorry that some of you fine folks on Usenet don't think I
should
identify myself with the fighter community since I'm not technically a
fighter pilot, but if you folks REALLY don't object too much, I think
I'll
just accept my association with the community as it is, and continue to
enjoy the mutual respect I have shared with the fighter community all
through my aviation career.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Well said, Dudley....Perhaps this will put an end this matter !

Regards, BMC

It should Brian, but knowing Usenet......... :-)))

Dudley

Subject: Fighter Pilot Fellowship (was: something else entirely)
From: "Dudley Henriques"
Date: 12/9/03 9:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: et


"Brian Colwell" wrote in message
news:uinBb.619639$6C4.13587@pd7tw1no...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. com...
monkey wrote:
Like I said before, dud, you shouldn't be in any fellowship for
"fighter pilots" unless that's what you are/were.


Therein lies the conundrum: were you a fighter pilot if you flew
P-51s
on
the
airshow circuit? The Mustang was most definitely a fighter. Were you
only a
fighter pilot if you flew fighters for a military service? Or only if
you've
fired your guns in anger?

This seems to be a grey area to me.

It might just be a little "grayer" than you imagine!! :-)))

Please allow me to give some of you "interested people" who are
commenting
on my life........a little hint on a few "things" if I might inject some
fact into all this fantasy please...... :-)
I'm afraid my association with the fighter community has little to do
with
the flying of warbirds per se'. It is more directly involved with over
fifty years of association with the fighter community dealing with such
issues as the enhancement of flight safety and additional issues
directly
of
interest to the community.
Although my association with the fighter community is honorary, I must
admit
that I has "honored" to be asked by that community to serve as the
President
of it's Fellowship; then first as the Maryland State Director ; then as
the
Regional Director of the Combat Pilots Association of the United States.
I
was equally "honored" to be asked to narrate the flight demonstrations
of
both the prototype YF17 Cobra AND the F14 Tomcat by both the Navy and
Northrop's demonstration test team. I was "honored" to do research test
flying in both the F14 and the T38. I was also "honored" to be asked to
fly
with the Canadian Snowbirds. I have also been "honored" to work within
the
fighter community on many issues pertaining to the testing of high
performance aircraft. I am "honored" to have my name and bio appear in
the
official book on the history of the P51Mustang along side those who flew
her
in harm's way. I have been "honored" by the Naval Test Pilot School
being
asked to attend their reunions, but I believe I was "honored" most when
the
Thunderbirds invited my wife and I down to Andrews AFB to celebrate my
"retirement" as a pilot with them. This "official occasion" was
celebrated
in the preflight brief with the team all signing the last page of a
logbook
dedicated to a lifetime's work in the air.
I remain to this day, involved with work dedicated to the saving of
lives
within the fighter community as a consultant.
I'm deeply sorry that some of you fine folks on Usenet don't think I
should
identify myself with the fighter community since I'm not technically a
fighter pilot, but if you folks REALLY don't object too much, I think
I'll
just accept my association with the community as it is, and continue to
enjoy the mutual respect I have shared with the fighter community all
through my aviation career.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Well said, Dudley....Perhaps this will put an end this matter !

Regards, BMC

It should Brian, but knowing Usenet......... :-)))

Dudley



If all those with fewer air hours than Dudley are eliminated from this sad
thread, the matter will never be discussed again.

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fighter Pilot Fellowship (was: something else entirely)
From: "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
Date: 12/8/03 6:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: m

monkey wrote:
Like I said before, dud, you shouldn't be in any fellowship for
"fighter pilots" unless that's what you are/were.


Therein lies the conundrum: were you a fighter pilot if you flew P-51s
on
the
airshow circuit? The Mustang was most definitely a fighter. Were you
only a
fighter pilot if you flew fighters for a military service? Or only if
you've
fired your guns in anger?

This seems to be a grey area to me.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com




Not gray at all. You can fly fighters but never have been in combat. You
are
still a fighter pilot because you piloted a fighter. But COMBAT pilot is
another matter entirely. Combat is a world apart.

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, That's it exactly.....this whole discussion has been an exercise in
semantics !!!!!

Regards, BMC

Subject: Fighter Pilot Fellowship (was: something else entirely)
From: "Brian Colwell"
Date: 12/9/03 11:37 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 1wpBb.620767$6C4.313597@pd7tw1no


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fighter Pilot Fellowship (was: something else entirely)
From: "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
Date: 12/8/03 6:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: m

monkey wrote:
Like I said before, dud, you shouldn't be in any fellowship for
"fighter pilots" unless that's what you are/were.


Therein lies the conundrum: were you a fighter pilot if you flew P-51s
on
the
airshow circuit? The Mustang was most definitely a fighter. Were you
only a
fighter pilot if you flew fighters for a military service? Or only if
you've
fired your guns in anger?

This seems to be a grey area to me.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com




Not gray at all. You can fly fighters but never have been in combat. You
are
still a fighter pilot because you piloted a fighter. But COMBAT pilot is
another matter entirely. Combat is a world apart.

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, That's it exactly.....this whole discussion has been an exercise in
semantics !!!!!

Regards, BMC


Yeah. Everyone gets all tangled up in his underwear and meets himself coming
around the corner. (sheesh)

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Brian Colwell wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Fighter Pilot Fellowship (was: something else entirely)
From: "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
Date: 12/8/03 6:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: m

monkey wrote:
Like I said before, dud, you shouldn't be in any fellowship for
"fighter pilots" unless that's what you are/were.


Therein lies the conundrum: were you a fighter pilot if you flew P-51s on
the
airshow circuit? The Mustang was most definitely a fighter. Were you only
a fighter pilot if you flew fighters for a military service? Or only if
you've fired your guns in anger?

This seems to be a grey area to me.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com




Not gray at all. You can fly fighters but never have been in combat. You are
still a fighter pilot because you piloted a fighter. But COMBAT pilot is
another matter entirely. Combat is a world apart.

Regards,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, That's it exactly.....this whole discussion has been an exercise in
semantics !!!!!

Regards, BMC

Semantics? In this place? I'm shocked to hear you say that.....shocked I tell
you!!! (^-^)))

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Semantics? In this place? I'm shocked to hear you say that.....shocked I
tell
you!!! (^-^)))

George Z.




George - you're anti semantic ? Now I'm shocked.





I've purposely stayed out of this thread - it's one of those that generates
more heat than light.



Dudley has my respect for what he brings to the group and that he's always
been civil to me. I've got no idea what happened at the beginning of
the thread and frankly, life's too short to care.



If this had happened in a bar, it would be all over now.



Cheers


Dave Kearton

Dave Kearton wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Semantics? In this place? I'm shocked to hear you say that.....shocked I
tell you!!! (^-^)))

George Z.




George - you're anti semantic ? Now I'm shocked.

Dave, we bigots have to do the best with what we have.

George Z.

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:06:34 GMT, "Brian Colwell" wrote:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. com...
monkey wrote:
Like I said before, dud, you shouldn't be in any fellowship for
"fighter pilots" unless that's what you are/were.


Therein lies the conundrum: were you a fighter pilot if you flew P-51s
on
the
airshow circuit? The Mustang was most definitely a fighter. Were you
only a
fighter pilot if you flew fighters for a military service? Or only if
you've
fired your guns in anger?

What is the big deal? A "fighter pilot" is simply another military
equipment operator. They are not some "super men". The OOD
of a Navy combatant has more systems/responsibility than any
pilot. Sheeesh, get over it.

Al Minyard