Rumsfeld's on Bravery

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"weary" wrote in message
...

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:14:00 GMT, "weary" wrote:


"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
weary wrote:

Brings to mind another who when discussing the threat of
insurgents
to
his
troops said "Bring them on", but when he went to the same
location he
slunk
in and out under cover of darkness like a thief.

And don't forget Roosevelt sneaking off to meet with Churchill in
the north Atlantic?

Those cowardly American Presidents!

Dont't try to put words in my mouth. I wasn't generalising, I was
being
specific.


SMH


No, you were being an idiot, and you still are.

I know I've made the point when I get personal abuse.

Exactly! It's one of the rules for survival on the Internet, i.e. - even
when
you're wrong, when your supply of facts is depleted, feel free to draw on
your
cache of invective. If that's really not one of the rules, then I've just
made
one up. If it needs a name, call it "George's Rule". (^-^)))

I thought "George's Rule" was along the lines of: "If you make a false
accusation and are called on it and provided evidnce to the contrary, just
ignore it or respond with a personal attack against the individual who
brought it to your attention, but under no circumstances admit your error"?

Brooks


George Z.

In article ,
"weary" wrote:

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
. ..

Those cowardly American Presidents!

Dont't try to put words in my mouth. I wasn't generalising, I was being
specific.

Specifically off-target, you mean...

No I know I hit the target. The same one that displayed his courage
when Sept 11 happened.

You *do* know, don't you, that there are mandatory procedures set out
for handling the president, along with a boatload of other items?

The president had no discretion whatsoever on 9/11.

Too bad that trashes your silly little fantasy.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"weary" wrote in message
...

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:14:00 GMT, "weary" wrote:


"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
weary wrote:

Brings to mind another who when discussing the threat of
insurgents
to
his
troops said "Bring them on", but when he went to the same
location he
slunk
in and out under cover of darkness like a thief.

And don't forget Roosevelt sneaking off to meet with Churchill in
the north Atlantic?

Those cowardly American Presidents!

Dont't try to put words in my mouth. I wasn't generalising, I was
being
specific.


SMH


No, you were being an idiot, and you still are.

I know I've made the point when I get personal abuse.

Exactly! It's one of the rules for survival on the Internet, i.e. - even
when
you're wrong, when your supply of facts is depleted, feel free to draw on
your
cache of invective. If that's really not one of the rules, then I've just
made
one up. If it needs a name, call it "George's Rule". (^-^)))

I thought "George's Rule" was along the lines of: "If you make a false
accusation and are called on it and provided evidnce to the contrary, just
ignore it or respond with a personal attack against the individual who
brought it to your attention, but under no circumstances admit your error"?

Brooks

As old Ronnie once said, "There you go again!" You're thinking and getting it
all wrong because you persist in translating everything into Brookspeak, which
everybody knows to be the height of fantasy. You may not like it, but "George's
Rule" is what I said it was and not what you want it to be. If you don't like
my rules, make up your own and put your own name on them so that no one will
confuse them with fact.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"weary" wrote in message
...

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:14:00 GMT, "weary"
wrote:


"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
weary wrote:

Brings to mind another who when discussing the threat of
insurgents
to
his
troops said "Bring them on", but when he went to the same
location he
slunk
in and out under cover of darkness like a thief.

And don't forget Roosevelt sneaking off to meet with Churchill
in
the north Atlantic?

Those cowardly American Presidents!

Dont't try to put words in my mouth. I wasn't generalising, I was
being
specific.


SMH


No, you were being an idiot, and you still are.

I know I've made the point when I get personal abuse.

Exactly! It's one of the rules for survival on the Internet, i.e. -
even
when
you're wrong, when your supply of facts is depleted, feel free to draw
on
your
cache of invective. If that's really not one of the rules, then I've
just
made
one up. If it needs a name, call it "George's Rule". (^-^)))

I thought "George's Rule" was along the lines of: "If you make a false
accusation and are called on it and provided evidnce to the contrary,
just
ignore it or respond with a personal attack against the individual who
brought it to your attention, but under no circumstances admit your
error"?

Brooks

As old Ronnie once said, "There you go again!" You're thinking and
getting it
all wrong because you persist in translating everything into Brookspeak,
which
everybody knows to be the height of fantasy. You may not like it, but
"George's
Rule" is what I said it was and not what you want it to be. If you don't
like
my rules, make up your own and put your own name on them so that no one
will
confuse them with fact.

You and fact have demonstrated little in common of late. Just so you can
review it again, here is the source that makes your earlier statement that
GWB never volunteered for Palace Alert an incorrect statement on your part
(and note that the reporters who concluded GWB did indeed volunteer came
from the Washington Post, hardly a sympathetic outlet to GWB):

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...5no19_bush.htm

It really gauls you to have to admit you were wrong on that one, huh?

Brooks

George Z.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

(Snip)

You and fact have demonstrated little in common of late. Just so you can
review it again, here is the source that makes your earlier statement that
GWB never volunteered for Palace Alert an incorrect statement on your part
(and note that the reporters who concluded GWB did indeed volunteer came
from the Washington Post, hardly a sympathetic outlet to GWB):

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...5no19_bush.htm

It really gauls you to have to admit you were wrong on that one, huh?

I've already explained how a rated ANG pilot can ground himself by letting his
flight physical expire without renewing it with a fresh physical exam. I didn't
say it because I thought it pretty obvious that you could do that a minute, a
day, a month or whatever after you've volunteered to fly to the moon, safe in
the knowledge that without a current physical you weren't going to be allowed to
fly anything anywhere. Anybody who was motivated to doing any combat flying had
only to make an appointment with his flight surgeon and take and pass his flight
physical in order to be eligible for selection. Without taking that exam, all
the volunteering in the world would only fool those dummies who don't fly into
thinking that it was for anything but show. Volunteering for an assignment that
you've deliberately made yourself ineligible for is dishonest and worthy only of
scorn from the flying community of military pilots.

It doesn't gall (please note the correct spelling of the word) me at all to
admit that I'm wrong, but on this subject the one who knows nothing about it is
you. But, of course, you wouldn't admit that, would you. No, I thought not.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

(Snip)

You and fact have demonstrated little in common of late. Just so you can
review it again, here is the source that makes your earlier statement
that
GWB never volunteered for Palace Alert an incorrect statement on your
part
(and note that the reporters who concluded GWB did indeed volunteer came
from the Washington Post, hardly a sympathetic outlet to GWB):

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...5no19_bush.htm

It really gauls you to have to admit you were wrong on that one, huh?

I've already explained how a rated ANG pilot can ground himself by letting
his
flight physical expire without renewing it with a fresh physical exam. I
didn't
say it because I thought it pretty obvious that you could do that a
minute, a
day, a month or whatever after you've volunteered to fly to the moon, safe
in
the knowledge that without a current physical you weren't going to be
allowed to
fly anything anywhere. Anybody who was motivated to doing any combat
flying had
only to make an appointment with his flight surgeon and take and pass his
flight
physical in order to be eligible for selection. Without taking that exam,
all
the volunteering in the world would only fool those dummies who don't fly
into
thinking that it was for anything but show. Volunteering for an
assignment that
you've deliberately made yourself ineligible for is dishonest and worthy
only of
scorn from the flying community of military pilots.

No, you are dodging again. You said he never volunteered, when in fact he
did, and it was well before his flight physical ran out, it was actually
reportedly done as he was finishing his training:

"Toward the completion of his training Bush volunteered for overseas duty as
part of the "Palace Alert" program which sent qualified F-102 pilots in the
Guard to Europe, the Far East, and occasionally to Vietnam." (from
previously cited source)

Your continual dodging about trying to rejustify yourself is pointless. He
volunteered. He had a valid flight physical at that time. Admit it, George,
you were wrong.

Brooks

It doesn't gall (please note the correct spelling of the word) me at all
to
admit that I'm wrong, but on this subject the one who knows nothing about
it is
you. But, of course, you wouldn't admit that, would you. No, I thought
not.

George Z.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

(Snip)

You and fact have demonstrated little in common of late. Just so you can
review it again, here is the source that makes your earlier statement
that
GWB never volunteered for Palace Alert an incorrect statement on your
part
(and note that the reporters who concluded GWB did indeed volunteer came
from the Washington Post, hardly a sympathetic outlet to GWB):

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...5no19_bush.htm

It really gauls you to have to admit you were wrong on that one, huh?

I've already explained how a rated ANG pilot can ground himself by letting
his
flight physical expire without renewing it with a fresh physical exam. I
didn't
say it because I thought it pretty obvious that you could do that a
minute, a
day, a month or whatever after you've volunteered to fly to the moon, safe
in
the knowledge that without a current physical you weren't going to be
allowed to
fly anything anywhere. Anybody who was motivated to doing any combat
flying had
only to make an appointment with his flight surgeon and take and pass his
flight
physical in order to be eligible for selection. Without taking that exam,
all
the volunteering in the world would only fool those dummies who don't fly
into
thinking that it was for anything but show. Volunteering for an
assignment that
you've deliberately made yourself ineligible for is dishonest and worthy
only of
scorn from the flying community of military pilots.

No, you are dodging again. You said he never volunteered, when in fact he
did, and it was well before his flight physical ran out, it was actually
reportedly done as he was finishing his training:

"Toward the completion of his training Bush volunteered for overseas duty as
part of the "Palace Alert" program which sent qualified F-102 pilots in the
Guard to Europe, the Far East, and occasionally to Vietnam." (from
previously cited source)



Your continual dodging about trying to rejustify yourself is pointless. He
volunteered. He had a valid flight physical at that time. Admit it, George,
you were wrong.

I'm sorry, but whether or not you agree, what I said was essentially accurate.
He may have had a valid flight physical when he volunteered but when he allowed
it to expire without taking the trouble of renewing it, he knew that he wasn't
even going to be tapped for one of those fat non-combat berths he wanted in
Europe or the Far East, much less for one in VN where people were exposed to the
possibility of dying. Those are facts and they are accurate and it was
dishonest to volunteer and then remove himself from eligibility by an overt act
on his part. He volunteered and then made sure that nothing would come of it by
letting his flight physical expire and not doing anything about replacing it
with a current one.

If I'm too hard on him, it's because I was a military pilot and I know what he
did and I can't make excuses for him under those circumstances.

I can't stop you from thinking it wasn't like that, but it's naive and
unrealistic on your part to hold that view.

George Z.

It doesn't gall (please note the correct spelling of the word) me at all
to
admit that I'm wrong, but on this subject the one who knows nothing about
it is
you. But, of course, you wouldn't admit that, would you. No, I thought
not.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

(Snip)

You and fact have demonstrated little in common of late. Just so you
can
review it again, here is the source that makes your earlier
statement
that
GWB never volunteered for Palace Alert an incorrect statement on
your
part
(and note that the reporters who concluded GWB did indeed volunteer
came
from the Washington Post, hardly a sympathetic outlet to GWB):

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...5no19_bush.htm

It really gauls you to have to admit you were wrong on that one,
huh?

I've already explained how a rated ANG pilot can ground himself by
letting
his
flight physical expire without renewing it with a fresh physical exam.
I
didn't
say it because I thought it pretty obvious that you could do that a
minute, a
day, a month or whatever after you've volunteered to fly to the moon,
safe
in
the knowledge that without a current physical you weren't going to be
allowed to
fly anything anywhere. Anybody who was motivated to doing any combat
flying had
only to make an appointment with his flight surgeon and take and pass
his
flight
physical in order to be eligible for selection. Without taking that
exam,
all
the volunteering in the world would only fool those dummies who don't
fly
into
thinking that it was for anything but show. Volunteering for an
assignment that
you've deliberately made yourself ineligible for is dishonest and
worthy
only of
scorn from the flying community of military pilots.

No, you are dodging again. You said he never volunteered, when in fact
he
did, and it was well before his flight physical ran out, it was actually
reportedly done as he was finishing his training:

"Toward the completion of his training Bush volunteered for overseas
duty as
part of the "Palace Alert" program which sent qualified F-102 pilots in
the
Guard to Europe, the Far East, and occasionally to Vietnam." (from
previously cited source)



Your continual dodging about trying to rejustify yourself is pointless.
He
volunteered. He had a valid flight physical at that time. Admit it,
George,
you were wrong.

I'm sorry, but whether or not you agree, what I said was essentially
accurate.
He may have had a valid flight physical when he volunteered but when he
allowed
it to expire without taking the trouble of renewing it, he knew that he
wasn't
even going to be tapped for one of those fat non-combat berths he wanted
in
Europe or the Far East, much less for one in VN where people were exposed
to the
possibility of dying. Those are facts and they are accurate and it was
dishonest to volunteer and then remove himself from eligibility by an
overt act
on his part. He volunteered and then made sure that nothing would come of
it by
letting his flight physical expire and not doing anything about replacing
it
with a current one.

If I'm too hard on him, it's because I was a military pilot and I know
what he
did and I can't make excuses for him under those circumstances.

I can't stop you from thinking it wasn't like that, but it's naive and
unrealistic on your part to hold that view.

George, his flight phsical did not run out until sometime in 1972--he
volunteered for Palace Alert while he was finishing training in early 1970.
By the time his physical ran out Palace Alert was no longer sending ANG
F-102 pilots to Vietnam/Thailand, and in fact the ANG was already starting
to dump its F-102's entirely (IIRC the majority were retired by mid 1974).
So I still don't see what you are griping about--he volunteered while he was
completing his Combat Crew training in the F-102, and he remained qualified
in the F-102 throughout the remaining period that Palace Alert was sending
ANG folks overseas. Apparently he was told upon volunteering, "Thanks, but
no thanks--we have enough experienced (1000 hour plus) F-102 pilots asking
for this duty so wea re not taking LT's straight out of the schoolhouse."
You admitted earlier that you had never even heard of Palace Alert, but now
you are in a position to judge GWB's volunteer status in that regard without
realizing that you apparently had your timeline out of whack? If you want to
condemn him for not being the best officer they ever had in the 111th FG
based upon his overall service record, fine, that is a matter of opinion for
you to decide--but trying to claim that he never volunteered, or that he
volunteered and then figuratively shot himself in the foot via his flight
physical to avoid having to meet that voluntary requirement, is just plain
false, and the factual timeline does not support that assertion.

Brooks


George Z.

It doesn't gall (please note the correct spelling of the word) me at all
to
admit that I'm wrong, but on this subject the one who knows nothing
about
it is
you. But, of course, you wouldn't admit that, would you. No, I
thought
not.

George Z.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

(Snip)

George, his flight phsical did not run out until sometime in 1972--he
volunteered for Palace Alert while he was finishing training in early 1970.
By the time his physical ran out Palace Alert was no longer sending ANG
F-102 pilots to Vietnam/Thailand, and in fact the ANG was already starting
to dump its F-102's entirely (IIRC the majority were retired by mid 1974).
So I still don't see what you are griping about--he volunteered while he was
completing his Combat Crew training in the F-102, and he remained qualified
in the F-102 throughout the remaining period that Palace Alert was sending
ANG folks overseas. Apparently he was told upon volunteering, "Thanks, but
no thanks--we have enough experienced (1000 hour plus) F-102 pilots asking
for this duty so wea re not taking LT's straight out of the schoolhouse."
You admitted earlier that you had never even heard of Palace Alert, but now
you are in a position to judge GWB's volunteer status in that regard without
realizing that you apparently had your timeline out of whack? If you want to
condemn him for not being the best officer they ever had in the 111th FG
based upon his overall service record, fine, that is a matter of opinion for
you to decide--but trying to claim that he never volunteered, or that he
volunteered and then figuratively shot himself in the foot via his flight
physical to avoid having to meet that voluntary requirement, is just plain
false, and the factual timeline does not support that assertion.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
t...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

(Snip)

George, his flight phsical did not run out until sometime in 1972--he
volunteered for Palace Alert while he was finishing training in early 1970.
By the time his physical ran out Palace Alert was no longer sending ANG
F-102 pilots to Vietnam/Thailand, and in fact the ANG was already starting
to dump its F-102's entirely (IIRC the majority were retired by mid 1974).
So I still don't see what you are griping about--he volunteered while he was
completing his Combat Crew training in the F-102, and he remained qualified
in the F-102 throughout the remaining period that Palace Alert was sending
ANG folks overseas. Apparently he was told upon volunteering, "Thanks, but
no thanks--we have enough experienced (1000 hour plus) F-102 pilots asking
for this duty so wea re not taking LT's straight out of the schoolhouse."
You admitted earlier that you had never even heard of Palace Alert, but now
you are in a position to judge GWB's volunteer status in that regard without
realizing that you apparently had your timeline out of whack? If you want to
condemn him for not being the best officer they ever had in the 111th FG
based upon his overall service record, fine, that is a matter of opinion for
you to decide--but trying to claim that he never volunteered, or that he
volunteered and then figuratively shot himself in the foot via his flight
physical to avoid having to meet that voluntary requirement, is just plain
false, and the factual timeline does not support that assertion.

On the subject of volunteering, when he first joined the Texas ANG, he filled
out a form and checked a box on that form indicating that he did not wish to
serve overseas. When asked about it, he later said that he didn't remember it,
and a member of his staff subsequently offered the imaginative explanation that
a personnel clerk must have done it for him. Even if it was true, it didn't
matter who did what.....he signed the form and was responsible for the accuracy
of everything in it.

About Palace Alert, Bush apparently applied for it some time during his Combat
Crew Training program, and also apparently was promptly told that he didn't have
a snowball's chance in hell of being selected for it because of his lack of
flying experience. In any case, I learned that the program was discontinued
exactly one week after Bush had completed his Combat Crew Training Course. The
fact of his volunteering for that program hardly signified any serious interest
in making that kind of contribution, since he was told up front that it wasn't
going to happen for him.

Regarding the business about his flight physical, they normally expire a month
following the birth month of the flyer, which would make it August of '72 in his
case. In April of '72, it apparently became common knowledge that flight
physicals were going to routinely include drug screenings. It wouldn't have
stopped me one way or the other, but it must have bothered him enough to
manufacture an excuse for not making his appointment by saying that his
physician resided in Houston, Texas while he was ostensibly serving with an
Alabama ANG unit. He abandoned that excuse when it was pointed out that any
rated flight surgeon was authorized to conduct such examinations, and there were
numerous ones available for his use at Maxwell AFB, Alabama. He chose not to
renew his physical knowing full well that it would end his flying career, which
it did. Doesn't it make you wonder what the impetus might have been to do
something like that? I think we both know what the reality of the situation
was.

I'm sure that you're thoroughly unimpressed with all of this, and perhaps it's
time to lay it to rest and move on, since it looks like neither of us is going
to change our views of the man. In any event, he's still our President and CIC,
and belaboring the details of his service isn't really going to change anything.

George Z.