Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?

On Apr 7, 3:27 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave Doe writes:
You don't know jack - there is simply no way you can simulate the
nervousness a student pilot might experience during flight and
conversation with ATC - sitting in front of a fuken computer.

The simulation works very well, since it involves most of the same factors
that produce nervousness.

Riiiight.
Except we don't have a pause function...
****ing dweeb

Don't worry, with a little sim training you could get better at those
robberies, carjackings and home invasions. ;-)

--
Regards, BobF.
"Nomen Nescio" wrote in message
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From: "Bob F."

So why do you do it? That's a rhetorical question BTW. ;-)

Between my wife and I over 35 years:

4 attempted robberies
1 attempted carjacking

and, last month, an attempted home invasion at 3:00 am.
All quickly ended without a shot being fired, but most were
a fraction of a second away from the hammer dropping.

That's a rhetorical answer BTW.


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In article ,
says...
Dave Doe writes:

You don't know jack - there is simply no way you can simulate the
nervousness a student pilot might experience during flight and
conversation with ATC - sitting in front of a fuken computer.

The simulation works very well, since it involves most of the same factors
that produce nervousness.

No, you *know* you're flying a simulation, and the brain *knows* that,
and you *know* you can't get into *real* trouble.

So it's nothing like the real thing at all.


Additionally, like most sim folk, you've probably done things very
differently from the real world (eg. you've mentioned you've flown
heavies). Well in real life, you start off doing a PPL. You don't
progress until you've done that. You are still a few thousand hours
away from flying a heavy. You have not done that in on your sim. As a
result, your flying on the sim is NOTHING LIKE reality.

for eg, picture this: you've done 6 or 7 hours on your PPL.
"Yesterday" you did your first solo. "Today" you are on your own
(taxying out and everything) and doing your second solo session, flying
in a grass circuit in a busy aerodrome that has a parallel RWY that
heavies and other traffic are using. A perpendicular RWY also exists.
Lets say you have:
36 and 18 and you're on 36 *grass* (simultaneous ops are approved on the
parallel RWY's). And there is 09 and 27 (but there is no 09/27 grass).

There are a couple other students (presumably) in the grass circuit with
you; you are happy that you are spacing yourself well and happy with
your touch-n-goes.

Your hour's up and you advise full-stop on your downwind call. ATC
clear you "left base, number 2, 36, report sighting 73 on short final".
You read back and report traffic in sight. You fly a longer downwind
for the sealed RWY and turn base. You hear the 73 cleared to land. You
hear a call to other traffic, you're mentioned, and they are number 3
(it's another 73). Then ATC call you are ask you to keep your speed up.
Getting nervous? You see on your base leg the #1 73's about to taxy off
the RWY, and looking to your right, you see the other 73's powerful
landing lights in the distance. Your begin your turn to final, you were
70kts on base, but being told to "hurry it up" you've pushed the nose
forward and not taken more flaps. You turn to final early as you're now
fast, at 450 AGL (you feel OK about that), your AS is now nearly 90kts.
You hear ATC advising the 73 they're now #2 (to you). You're now
levelling a bit, power off, grabbing flaps, and configuring for your
approach and flare. (Did you remember carb heat? - oh well). You're
150 AGL, speed's good, full flap. What's your next move?

Given your answer, I'll have some more questions for you.

--
Duncan

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 21:00:01 +0200 (CEST), Nomen Nescio wrote:

Between my wife and I over 35 years:

4 attempted robberies
1 attempted carjacking

and, last month, an attempted home invasion at 3:00 am.
All quickly ended without a shot being fired, but most were
a fraction of a second away from the hammer dropping.

That's a rhetorical answer BTW.

You're a bigger blowhard braggart than McCormack on his windiest days.

Nomen Nescio writes:

"MOST"?!?

Yes, most.

On Sun, 6 Apr 2008 03:27:06 +0200 (CEST), Mxsmanic plays with toys
writes wrote:

Path: news.motzarella.org!motzarella.org!club-internet.fr!feedme-small.clubint.net!feeder1-1.proxad.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!news.wiretrip.org!news.dizum.com!sewe r-output!mail2news
From: Mxsmanic plays with toys writes
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?
References:
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 03:27:06 +0200 (CEST)
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Xref: news.motzarella.org rec.aviation.piloting:30542825

When it's true.

But it is false.

When have you experienced the real thing?

It is the real thing.

VATSIM is not ATC.

Maybe you can explain to me why a gymnist can consistantly perform a perfect routine on a painted line on the ground, but is unable to do so on a balance beam a few feet off the ground.

It's the exact same thing.

This is one of those fake posts I was speaking of.

Dave Doe writes:

No, you *know* you're flying a simulation, and the brain *knows* that,
and you *know* you can't get into *real* trouble.

Actually, intelligent people are able to get past this. Anyone who is
completely unable to forget that he is engaging in a simulation will have a
hard time getting any utility out of simulation at all. Fortunately, like
Method actors, smart simulator users do not constantly tell themselves that
it's a simulation but instead try to pretend that it's real. When they do
this successfully the usefulness of the simulation is hugely enhanced.

One sees this problem in other domains where cognitive deficits exist. A
smart user of a video game will mentally set aside the unrealistic aspects of
the game and embrace the realistic ones, allowing for a fuller virtual
experience. A stupid user sees only what is actually there, and cannot
mentally bridge any gaps or overlook any anomalies, and so no matter how much
he plays the game, he never gets much out of it.

Additionally, like most sim folk, you've probably done things very
differently from the real world (eg. you've mentioned you've flown
heavies). Well in real life, you start off doing a PPL. You don't
progress until you've done that.

That is irrelevant for purposes of ATC. However, as it happens, I flew small
aircraft in the sim first.

for eg, picture this: you've done 6 or 7 hours on your PPL.
"Yesterday" you did your first solo. "Today" you are on your own
(taxying out and everything) and doing your second solo session, flying
in a grass circuit in a busy aerodrome that has a parallel RWY that
heavies and other traffic are using.

I wouldn't normally fly at a busy aerodrome with seven hours of experience,
especially solo. I also don't like grass runways. You don't say what type of
aircraft you have in mind, but it sounds like some sort of pokey little tin
can that I wouldn't want to fly, not even for training.

There are a couple other students (presumably) in the grass circuit with
you; you are happy that you are spacing yourself well and happy with
your touch-n-goes.

I wouldn't want to be in the grass circuit. I want pavement. I don't want to
fly with the po'folk.

Your hour's up and you advise full-stop on your downwind call. ATC
clear you "left base, number 2, 36, report sighting 73 on short final".
You read back and report traffic in sight. You fly a longer downwind
for the sealed RWY and turn base. You hear the 73 cleared to land. You
hear a call to other traffic, you're mentioned, and they are number 3
(it's another 73). Then ATC call you are ask you to keep your speed up.

I ask ATC for a precise speed restriction, and accept or refuse based on what
I consider that I can safely maintain. "Keep your speed up" is vague and means
nothing to me.

Getting nervous? You see on your base leg the #1 73's about to taxy off
the RWY, and looking to your right, you see the other 73's powerful
landing lights in the distance. Your begin your turn to final, you were
70kts on base, but being told to "hurry it up" you've pushed the nose
forward and not taken more flaps.

I fly only a Baron and a Bonanza, and neither will be at 70 knots on base. I
won't be in a position where I have to "hurry it up" because I won't accept
speed restrictions that might make the flight unsafe.

You turn to final early as you're now
fast, at 450 AGL (you feel OK about that), your AS is now nearly 90kts.
You hear ATC advising the 73 they're now #2 (to you). You're now
levelling a bit, power off, grabbing flaps, and configuring for your
approach and flare. (Did you remember carb heat? - oh well). You're
150 AGL, speed's good, full flap. What's your next move?

Ninety knots is fine. I had full flaps long ago, so I'm not grabbing them
now. I have fuel injection. I descend to the runway, flare, and touch down,
and I turn at the next available taxiway after decelerating.

You're imposing a long list of conditions that you've chosen unilaterally. I
don't accept those conditions, as I've explained above. One of the advantages
of simulation is that it's not constrained by money issues, which means that I
don't have to fly tin cans over grass runways at barely above walking speed.

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:14:28 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

One of the advantages
of simulation is that it's not constrained by money issues, which means that I
don't have to fly tin cans over grass runways at barely above walking speed.


Without intending to join the chorus, I respectfully submit, that you
have no concept of the joyous experience you are missing. Trust me.


A new student pilot flying solo is at last free to wander in the third
dimension unconstrained as the vast majority of Earth bound souls are.
He soars from the surface of the Earth, and effortlessly guides his
light aircraft higher with such nimble agility, that the machine
mentally melds into his nervous system in a rapture of pure Zen
integration of spirit, mind and machine. He was born with wings, and
is as skillful and free as Bach's Jonathan. The pilot's visceral
reaction to the sights, sounds, smells, and kinesthetic cacophony's
endless bombardment of sensory input result in a unique ambiance that
is aviation. The pilot's post-flight consciousness is clear and
refreshed as though just squeegeed, and the world is a bright,
cheerful home indeed. Although he walks the same flat plane at the
juncture of atmosphere and terra as his fellows, he carries the
knowledge and experiences of the joy of flight, and the power to soar
at will.

Get out to the closest uncontrolled field (I visited one north of
Othus in 2000*) at which is based an Air France Aero Club. Beg a ride
with one of the members on a fair Saturday morning. You'll thank me.




* The folks I met were a hail-fellow-well-met most polite, warm, and
almost avuncular group that more than tolerated this foreign pilot who
knew no French.

In article ,
says...
Dave Doe writes:

No, you *know* you're flying a simulation, and the brain *knows* that,
and you *know* you can't get into *real* trouble.

Actually, intelligent people are able to get past this. Anyone who is
completely unable to forget that he is engaging in a simulation will have a
hard time getting any utility out of simulation at all. Fortunately, like
Method actors, smart simulator users do not constantly tell themselves that
it's a simulation but instead try to pretend that it's real.

Pretend, being the operative word. Only kids have plausable dualistic
minds. Perhaps that's you. The rest of us have grown up.


When they do
this successfully the usefulness of the simulation is hugely enhanced.

Enhanced, being the operative word there.

It's not reality, and you *cannot* escape that. To do so - and you
should be put in a mental asylum - no longer being able to distinguish
between reality and fantasy is considered by good psychologists to
dangerous.

dribble snipped

Additionally, like most sim folk, you've probably done things very
differently from the real world (eg. you've mentioned you've flown
heavies). Well in real life, you start off doing a PPL. You don't
progress until you've done that.

That is irrelevant for purposes of ATC. However, as it happens, I flew small
aircraft in the sim first.

It most certainly is not!

rest of your dribbling excuse snipped

You fly a sim and yet are unable to "put yourself in the seat" - that's
counter to your argument in the first place. (It's a sim, and you're
telling me you can't simulate it - pathetic really).

--
Duncan

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:14:28 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

One of the advantages
of simulation is that it's not constrained by money issues, which means that I
don't have to fly tin cans over grass runways at barely above walking speed.


Without intending to join the chorus, I respectfully submit, that you
have no concept of the joyous experience you are missing. Trust me.


Sucker.

It isn't the real MX.

While the imitation of his style isn't bad, I would give it a B-, mostly
for effort.

For a fun game, how many words, phrases, and statements can you find the
real MX would never use or say.


--
Jim Pennino

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