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#101
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"mike regish" wrote in message news:1Aq%c.148766$mD.109922@attbi_s02...
Actually, it was the autoland feature that crashed that plane. The computer wouldn't let the pilot go around. Actually, you are totally wrong. "The newly delivered aircraft was to perform a charter flight on behalf of the Mulhouse Flying Club. The crew was to overfly Mulhouse-Habsheim airport two times (first at low speed, gear down at 100ft and the other at high speed in clean configuration) as part of an airshow. The aircraft took off from Basle-Mulhouse at 2:41pm local time and climbed to 1000 feet. The crew started the descent three minutes later and Habsheim was in sight at 450ft agl. The first officer informed the captain that the aircraft was reaching 100ft at 14:45:14. The descent continued to 50ft 8 seconds later and further to 30-35ft. Go-around power was added at 14.45:35. The A320 continued and touched trees at the end of the runway at 14:45:40 with a 14° pitch attitude and an engine speed of 83% N1. The plane sank slowly into the forest and a fire broke out. Failure of the Captain to maintain sufficient altitude and airspeed for recovery after a low approach to a runway with obstacles near the departure end." http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi_bin/v...ine=Air+France |
#102
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"Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message
.. . First "Dudley Henriques" writes: Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to retract fifty years of sought after professional advice. Then he professionally advises: Oh give me a ****ing break! ...and... Who the hell do you think you're kidding? He attempts to threaten: and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!! Continues professionally: God, what a ****ing moron you are. ...and then retracts the threat: Threatening my ass! The only threats you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use of the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would have marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested" parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my name and any reference of me from your website! Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that! Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do. Chris (I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The "Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I get a minute.') And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about Dudley's posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry either. I suppose we all have our triggers... John |
#103
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This is a reasonable response offered intelligently. You are right, and
I apologize to you for the upheaval. The reasons are complicated and I don't feel the need to expand on them, but you are right, and I was wrong. Thank you for the post. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship "Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message .. . First "Dudley Henriques" writes: Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to retract fifty years of sought after professional advice. Then he professionally advises: Oh give me a ****ing break! ...and... Who the hell do you think you're kidding? He attempts to threaten: and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!! Continues professionally: God, what a ****ing moron you are. ...and then retracts the threat: Threatening my ass! The only threats you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use of the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would have marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested" parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my name and any reference of me from your website! Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that! Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do. Chris (I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The "Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I get a minute.') -- Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751 |
#104
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"John Mullen" wrote in message ... "Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message .. . First "Dudley Henriques" writes: Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to retract fifty years of sought after professional advice. Then he professionally advises: Oh give me a ****ing break! ...and... Who the hell do you think you're kidding? He attempts to threaten: and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!! Continues professionally: God, what a ****ing moron you are. ...and then retracts the threat: Threatening my ass! The only threats you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use of the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would have marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested" parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my name and any reference of me from your website! Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that! Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do. Chris (I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The "Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I get a minute.') And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about Dudley's posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry either. I suppose we all have our triggers... The "triggers" are quite strong and go very deep. Sorry for the trouble. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship |
#105
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"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net... "John Mullen" wrote in message ... "Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message .. . First "Dudley Henriques" writes: Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to retract fifty years of sought after professional advice. Then he professionally advises: Oh give me a ****ing break! ...and... Who the hell do you think you're kidding? He attempts to threaten: and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!! Continues professionally: God, what a ****ing moron you are. ...and then retracts the threat: Threatening my ass! The only threats you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use of the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would have marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested" parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my name and any reference of me from your website! Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that! Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do. Chris (I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The "Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I get a minute.') And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about Dudley's posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry either. I suppose we all have our triggers... The "triggers" are quite strong and go very deep. Sorry for the trouble. No trouble at all. I enjoy reading your posts. I know there must be a reason you flew off the handle. John |
#106
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It's complicated, but basically I shouldn't have lost my temper like I
did. I don't do it very often, but when I do, I don't tread lightly. It's a fault of mine. I don't come from the world of pleasure flying. That doesn't mean I'm better than pleasure pilots...just different. I've been pushing airplanes to the limits of both their and my own maximum performance limits for many years and survived. It's not a forgiving world. I've been witness to many people dying in airplanes, a lot of them extremely close friends. I've served on a few accident investigation teams, basically within the airshow community. We're a fairly close community. With us, life's real priorities get put in order pretty fast. You learn pretty quick what's important and what's not important in life when you're inverted half way through a slow roll at 100 feet and you blow an oil line. Certain things are very sensitive to us; one of these things is the use of crash video by people outside the professional aviation community for purposes other than a bonafide crash investigation or a news scenario. We realize we can't stop it, but we don't like it just the same. For example, Bud Holland was an idiot; a total disaster. His ultimate death was considered a foregone conclusion in our little world. It was just a matter of when it would happen. Bud finally killed himself through overconfidence and by pushing his airplane too far into the left side of his envelope. It was a horrible thing to watch. But Bud Holland wasn't the only person on that airplane. He had a crew, and I knew the co-pilot on Czar 52. It's hard to explain how someone coming from my background feels about seeing this crash and others displayed on a web site. Granted, the site owner went to the trouble of attaching some related safety notation to this particular video, and I commend that, but then I saw the two words COOL and ENJOY. The only thought that runs through the mind of someone with my background at such a moment is that this web site owner, even if his motives were fair and not prurient, had invaded into my personal world. He hadn't paid the dues required to be in that world. He's just a guy showing a film that represents the last moments on this earth of a friend of mine, a nice guy who isn't even mentioned in the accompanying text. I don't know the right and wrong of it all. All I know is that to us, in the airshow community, the showing of our deaths on a page where COOL and ENJOY are showing as part of the accompanying marquee is like waving a red flag at a bull. I know that these videos will be shown, and nothing I can say or do will prevent them from being shown, but the very least these web sites could do, simply out of respect for the people who have died in these accidents, is to remove words like COOL and ENJOY from the site. The owner of the site has removed the word COOL from the site, and I am grateful and commend him for doing that, but the word ENJOY, although I'm sure meaningless to him personally, still leaves that awful taste in my mouth when I see it there. There was nothing for me to enjoy about Mark McGeehan's death. I was wrong to lose my temper with the owner. I really don't think in reflection that his motives were and are unethical. It's just more than I can handle I guess, to see an old friend die and know that others are seeing him die under the word ENJOY! I guess in the end, you would just have to know someone like me personally, or be from my little corner of the professional aviation world to appreciate how I feel about something like this. Anyway, thank you for your post, and I can assure you, I don't fly off the handle like that all that often, so hang in there; I'm not REALLY as dangerous as I must have appeared on this thread. Sometimes I even have moments of sanity! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship "John Mullen" wrote in message ... "Dudley Henriques" wrote in message link.net... "John Mullen" wrote in message ... "Christopher Brian Colohan" wrote in message .. . First "Dudley Henriques" writes: Right! I'll inform the rest of the world immediately! They'll want to retract fifty years of sought after professional advice. Then he professionally advises: Oh give me a ****ing break! ...and... Who the hell do you think you're kidding? He attempts to threaten: and oh yes, you have ****ed off the worst person you could have possibly picked to confront on this issue...trust me!!! Continues professionally: God, what a ****ing moron you are. ...and then retracts the threat: Threatening my ass! The only threats you have received from me is the threat that had I actually posted to your site in the interest of flight safety; then discovered your use of the two words "COOL" and "ENJOY" with my name under them; I would have marched into your GD lobby with several dozen other "interested" parties from the aviation community and demanded that you remove my name and any reference of me from your website! Go on moron, show us some more threats other than that! Some unsolicited advice: think, _then_ post. You will come off sounding much more reasoned and professional if you do. Chris (I happen to believe that Jay actually meant it when he said 'The "Cool Videos" title pre-dates many of the tragic videos that are now on that page. I shall change it to something more appropriate when I get a minute.') And I see he has changed it now. I agree with your coments about Dudley's posts; I cannot see either jsut why he got so very angry either. I suppose we all have our triggers... The "triggers" are quite strong and go very deep. Sorry for the trouble. No trouble at all. I enjoy reading your posts. I know there must be a reason you flew off the handle. John |
#107
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"Morgans" wrote in message ... I had always thought you to be a bit sanctimonious, but I put up with it for the knowledge you brought. It just isn't worth it any longer. Plonk. Sigh. -- Jim in NC Your loss! Tex Houston |
#108
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"Dave Kearton" wrote I must admit, that's something I didn't do, not that I could afford to throw away $165 - but it's not that easy to do with an online store. This crowd has a generous returns policy - if you're not happy with the product. I'm more than happy with the resolution, performance and the associated editing software and I've since used half a dozen more (of this brand) for work. Certainly, yes, if you're buying it from a shopfront, see it first. Cheers Dave Kearton I must admit, the unit you are talking about is something I was unaware of, until I saw one on the shelf tonight. The kind I have experience with is a video capture card on the computer, itself. It does look interesting. -- Jim in NC --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004 |
#109
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Dudley
Thanks for your post. Unlike you, I am not a pilot, though I have been in love with planes and flying since I was a wee boy. I have done quite a few hours of instruction in Pipers and Cessnas but cannot really afford on my salary to get a licence. I did use to drive motor bikes professionally as a despatch rider and have lost a few friends over the years that way. I know how the fairly flippant portrayal of your friend's death must have offended you. I think I would have felt the same way. I tried to point that out to the OP as well. Death casts a shadow. By a weird coincidence, I was reading just last night for the nth time the story of the crash in which your friend was killed in Andrew Brookes' book. If you haven't seen it, it is worth a look. He says the same as you about it. He and Macarthur Job are highly prized resources on aviation safety; thoughtful and insightful. If you want a good book on aviation safety, you could do worse than read it. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...175441-4003826 He was an RAF pilot. Great writer. In his version he claims that several of the crew on that plane were instructed to go by their superiors because they themselves knew Holland was a disaster waiting to happen. If that is true, it is a f***ing disgrace. They would have been braver to ground Holland than themselves I would think. May I extend my symapthy for your loss. John |
#110
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Hi John;
From your post, you sound very much like my good friend David Francis from the U.K. He speaks a lot like you and has the same sense of intelligent reasoning. Nice to know you! I have a few moments this morning, so let me delve into this a bit deeper for you. I think the issues involved in this thread probably go much deeper than just the videos and my personal reaction to them, although that reaction obviously is a large part of it. I'm fairly convinced that the original poster (Bogels) pushing all the videos has motives that are not totally up front. Perhaps I'm reading it because of my sensitivity to the basic issue, but I've seen this pattern before. It usually has to do with the enhancement of reputation by supplying what has been conceived by the photographer as a basic constant of the human nature factor to view video like this as a "hook". Actually, it's an effective technique and is part and parcel of a basic advertising concept known in advertising 101 at the grade school level. It practically guarantees generation of the excitement needed to attract and steer the viewer toward the real reason for the video being used. Basically, it's in the same category as using sex in advertising to generate impact interest. The other web site involved in the thread, (Honek) I don't believe has these motives. In other words, I don't believe that if Honek actually KNEW some of, or even one of the people killed in the videos he's showing on his site, he would have put the words COOL and ENJOY there to begin with. So that part of the equation deals with perspective; his, and naturally my own. So where does that leave us in the judgment area? Should Honek refrain from showing his crash videos because they offend me personally? I don't believe that's a fair solution. He has a right to do whatever he pleases regardless of the fact that there are those the showing of the video might offend. And we can add to this that there are indeed many out here who see no problem whatsoever with showing crash video. Many actually believe that they can learn something from watching. This of course is nonsense to anyone with accident investigation experience. Simply watching a crash video without any explicit knowledge...and I mean EXPLICIT KNOWLEDGE od the accident being shown yields little in the way of useful flight safety related data. For example, if it were possible for the average GA pilot to view a video of the Thunderbird Diamond crash at Indian Springs Nevada on 18 January 1982 that killed all four T38 positions, absolutely nothing would be gained from this viewing except to walk away thinking "I won't be doing low altitude line abreast loops in the T38 any more. It's not a safe thing to do" Nothing of a safety value would have been gained by these people watching such a crash video. They just wouldn't be expert enough to gain useful information from it if that indeed was their intent in the first place. To someone like me however, seeing the video would have had meaning. I know this crash very well. In fact, having flown tests in the T38 prior to the crash dealing with slab stall and vertical apex penetration speed vs. altitude, plus knowing the Thunderbird routine myself, I would have seen something immediately that would have indicated clearly what had caused this accident. The point I'm making here is simply that for a layman (layman being defined as someone not cognizant of specific accident data...including pilots) to watch a crash video thinking that there's a safety lesson in doing it.....well, let's just say the time could be better spent practicing your flying at the local airport. Those of us who deal in this scenario have long known this to be a fact. There will always be those pilots who believe that watching a crash video allows them to come away with a strong safety lesson, but this just isn't true for the uncontrolled web site viewing environment. It IS true however, in a CONTROLLED environment, where skilled safety experts completely familiar with a specific accident using the video along with expert commentary allow a tremendous safety value to exist for that video. Anything else other than this scenario is just not an honest reason for watching the video. But be that as it may. I can't control human nature. The videos exist, and people have a right to view both show them and view them as well. It is my hope that the hotel owner (Honek) will eventually change two remaining things on his site, if not for me personally, for those who have died in the videos he has there. On the left side of the main screen is the link "cool stuff". I would make a small change there to something more appropriate. I would also take the word ENJOY off the site, or at least move it to some place where in context, it remain unattached to the viewing of people dying in these crashes. Personally, I would like to believe that Honek is the type of person who would stop and re-think these two small things and change them. Not that my opinion of him is all that important, but I think I read some honesty and integrity in his posts regardless of our somewhat heated discussion. Anyway, you have taken a ride with me this morning and had a small look into my world. Enjoyed having you along. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship "John Mullen" wrote in message ... Dudley Thanks for your post. Unlike you, I am not a pilot, though I have been in love with planes and flying since I was a wee boy. I have done quite a few hours of instruction in Pipers and Cessnas but cannot really afford on my salary to get a licence. I did use to drive motor bikes professionally as a despatch rider and have lost a few friends over the years that way. I know how the fairly flippant portrayal of your friend's death must have offended you. I think I would have felt the same way. I tried to point that out to the OP as well. Death casts a shadow. By a weird coincidence, I was reading just last night for the nth time the story of the crash in which your friend was killed in Andrew Brookes' book. If you haven't seen it, it is worth a look. He says the same as you about it. He and Macarthur Job are highly prized resources on aviation safety; thoughtful and insightful. If you want a good book on aviation safety, you could do worse than read it. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...175441-4003826 He was an RAF pilot. Great writer. In his version he claims that several of the crew on that plane were instructed to go by their superiors because they themselves knew Holland was a disaster waiting to happen. If that is true, it is a f***ing disgrace. They would have been braver to ground Holland than themselves I would think. May I extend my symapthy for your loss. John |
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