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#101
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41 years ago I joined the Vultures club in Michigan, a winch only club
where I learned to fly gliders and soar. It was interesting how often a couple of circles after releasing resulted in a gain in altitude. It seems that the turbulence of the tow often released a thermal. Our tows were fifty cents and did we bitch when it went up to seventy five cents. It is too bad that so many influential pilots in the US have been knocking winch towing for such a long time. I would guess that half my aero tows at the 2005 Sports Class Nationals were more difficult than my typical winch tow. Taking off with a quartering tailwind, flying through gusts that blew me across the runway, 50 ft above the ground at the end of the runway and making a slow turn to avoid home sites at 50 knots is not my idea of fun. The tow pilots were fantastic, the line crews were great, the tasking was extraordinary, interesting and challenging and every day was a different challenge. John Good, the CD was not a magician, he was a wizard at setting tasks with the aid of Sam Zimmerman and the task advisers john Sinclair and Walt Cannon. It was one hell of a contest, probably the best run and organized that it has been my privilege to fly. mg Bill Daniels wrote: "Kilo Charlie" wrote in message news:9D3we.3579$Qo.3471@fed1read01... Your input re winch launches is appreciated Bill....esp for those of us that have never done one! Please don't take this as a criticism of winch launches but through this thread there has not been any mention of what happens at the critical low level altitude when the cable breaks. There is clearly also a zone of real problems with aerotows too.....esp here in the desert with few, if any landing options straight ahead. What do you guys teach re breaks at 100 feet? It seems like landing ahead would be good but how much altitude does it take to regain the necessary speed to be able to control the glider for landing when at a high angle of attack? Sorry if this is too obvious for those of you that do it all the time! Casey Thanks, Casey. The climb profile must be such that a safe recovery with generous margins be possible from any height that a cable break occurs. Safety is the product of airspeed, altitude and attitude - and good training. If the break happens at 100 feet, then 90%+ of the runway lies ahead to receive the glider. At 100 feet, the glider will have full climb airspeed, approx. 60 knots, but then pitch attitude will only be 20 - 30 degrees. A prompt, gentle pushover to a glide at approach airspeed is all that is needed to land straight ahead. If the break occurs higher, say 300 - 400 feet, then the straight ahead landing is still possible with spoilers but a tight 360 pattern is also possible. The two options overlap by a good amount of height depending on the airfield. At this height, the climb attitude will be about 45 degrees nose up (although from the cockpit it will feel like 60 degrees) so a more aggressive pushover is needed. All these situations will be practiced over and over until the instructor feels the student reacts instinctively and correctly to each. The student must firmly push the nose down until the airspeed is observed to be at a safe value and increasing before establishing a glide for a straight ahead landing or a turn for an abbreviated pattern. I must admit that winch launch LOOKS scary and FEELS scary to the uninitiated but the procedures worked out over literally tens of millions of launches in Europe and elsewhere make it actually safer than air tow. As for releasing over the winch instead of wherever the tow plane takes you, I see by looking at a lot of On-Line Contest IGC files, that most air tow releases happen within a mile of the takeoff point and the glider is rarely in a thermal at release but must glide around looking for one just like with a winch launch. If you don't find a thermal, a winch re-light will cost you less than $10. The latest European winches are getting even heavy gliders to over 1000 meters AGL so finding lift shouldn't be a problem. Bill Daniels |
#102
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At 21:42 22 June 2005, Stefan wrote:
M B wrote: In my experience, I have seen and been a part of confusion in the cockpit. One pilot is saying one thing and the other is contradicting it. I've also had both pilots on the controls at the same time, with opposite pressures applied. I'm more and more, well, surprized, what you have been experiencing while flying. I've never seen, even less been part of such a thing. Quite common in US accident reports, especially among very experienced pilots. Airline black box transcripts almost always show there was some CRM problem that contributed to a difficulty. I've seen CRM miscommunications result in less-than-perfect results several times with others, too. Most commonly I've seen it when instructors initiate emergency procedures as a 'surprise.' Gear-up landing, and a landout when too far from the end of the runway on a 'rope break' procedure where the student was too slow reacting. As pilots become more skilled, the reasons for accidents seem to shift from pure stick skill issues to other things, particularly CRM. I would guess that if there was a black box in every two-seat glider accident, some CRM problem would be listed as contributing. Communicate before the flight, define the roles and adhere to it. Who will do what? Who will fly in an emergency? Communicate during the flight, and do so clearly. Excellent, excellent advice. Something I think that is not done formally very often in some places... And, you may ask, if the other pilot is doing something I don't like? Well, if I don't trust the other pilot, I won't fly with him. If he doesn't trust me, I don't want him to fly with me. Simple as that, very basic CRM stuff. (It needn't be offensive when I say I don't like his way of flying, because I'm not implying that he's a bad pilot, I'm just saying our styles are incompatible.) The trouble is: you have to fly with him once to find out. Hopefully it is a benign flight... I'm surprized that, as it seems, you can become an instructor in the USA without knowing such basic stuff. You're not supposed to be able to. CRM is an emphasis area for all practical tests for all pilot ratings in the USA. However, there are something like 14 'emphasis areas' so it ends up getting buried, and trivially tested. And despite the test standards being very specific in the 'you have the controls' phrase for exchanging controls, I've had examiners say 'I've got the airplane' and have students say other arcane phrases, and sometimes just release all of the controls completely in a challenging situation, with no words at all! So now I rehearse the 'you have the controls' stuff for the first flight with everyone, even other instructors! It seems funny (they should know that, right?) but I haven't had problems since. It seems like a lot of non-instructors fly together in two-seaters, and don't formalize the CRM stuff. And hey, what are you gonna do if one is more experienced than the other? If the newbie is flying and gets into an emergency, have the more experienced guy take over? Kind of hard to do in a split second. Another post suggested that one of these Nimbus accidents may have been from one guy doing one thing and the other guy doing something else unexpected. I wouldn't be surprised. My point here is that I think CRM is maybe a bigger factor in a lot of 2-seat accidents than the reports show. The stuff you talk about as being obvious isn't taught and tested as textbook here in the USA, or perhaps just turns into one among many 'emphasis areas.' It sounds like in your training this recieved more emphasis. Was that formally required for license, or was that just informal common-sense? In the USA, in our Glider Flying Handbook, there isn't anything at all that I am aware of which talks about tandem seating and sticks and dangers of simultaneous pressures on dual controls/CRM brief before takeoff. This is a bit of a training gap, in my opinion... Stefan Mark J. Boyd |
#103
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Just to add to what Bill has said, the really low launch
failure 100 is one of the minor problem areas. If the launch is flown correctly it can be quite safely handled. The good point is, as Bill has pointed out that there is a large amount of airfield still in front of you. The bad news is that by the time the nose has been lowered the airspeed may be below the minimum allowed for the deployment of airbrakes. It may not be possible to lower the nose any further to increase the speed because of the proximity to the ground and therefore a touchdown has to be achieved without using airbrake. Patience is required as most modern gliders float a long way even at 50 kts in ground effect. (Grob 103 will travel the length of the 10000ft runway at Marham from 20ft/60kts) Simulating a launch failure at this height is not recomended as there is a real danger that the drogue will inflate as the winch driver cuts the power and drape itself over the cockpit. The good news is that such breaks are rare as the strain on the cable is reducing before increasing again. The procedure can be simulated by carrying out a faster than normal approach, pulling up and closing the airbrakes and then recovering from that situation which puts the glider in the same situation as a low break but without the cable in the way. At 04:30 28 June 2005, Bill Daniels wrote: 'Kilo Charlie' wrote in message news:9D3we.3579$Qo.3471@fed1read01... Your input re winch launches is appreciated Bill....esp for those of us that have never done one! Please don't take this as a criticism of winch launches but through this thread there has not been any mention of what happens at the critical low level altitude when the cable breaks. There is clearly also a zone of real problems with aerotows too.....esp here in the desert with few, if any landing options straight ahead. What do you guys teach re breaks at 100 feet? It seems like landing ahead would be good but how much altitude does it take to regain the necessary speed to be able to control the glider for landing when at a high angle of attack? Sorry if this is too obvious for those of you that do it all the time! Casey Thanks, Casey. The climb profile must be such that a safe recovery with generous margins be possible from any height that a cable break occurs. Safety is the product of airspeed, altitude and attitude - and good training. If the break happens at 100 feet, then 90%+ of the runway lies ahead to receive the glider. At 100 feet, the glider will have full climb airspeed, approx. 60 knots, but then pitch attitude will only be 20 - 30 degrees. A prompt, gentle pushover to a glide at approach airspeed is all that is needed to land straight ahead. If the break occurs higher, say 300 - 400 feet, then the straight ahead landing is still possible with spoilers but a tight 360 pattern is also possible. The two options overlap by a good amount of height depending on the airfield. At this height, the climb attitude will be about 45 degrees nose up (although from the cockpit it will feel like 60 degrees) so a more aggressive pushover is needed. All these situations will be practiced over and over until the instructor feels the student reacts instinctively and correctly to each. The student must firmly push the nose down until the airspeed is observed to be at a safe value and increasing before establishing a glide for a straight ahead landing or a turn for an abbreviated pattern. I must admit that winch launch LOOKS scary and FEELS scary to the uninitiated but the procedures worked out over literally tens of millions of launches in Europe and elsewhere make it actually safer than air tow. As for releasing over the winch instead of wherever the tow plane takes you, I see by looking at a lot of On-Line Contest IGC files, that most air tow releases happen within a mile of the takeoff point and the glider is rarely in a thermal at release but must glide around looking for one just like with a winch launch. If you don't find a thermal, a winch re-light will cost you less than $10. The latest European winches are getting even heavy gliders to over 1000 meters AGL so finding lift shouldn't be a problem. Bill Daniels |
#104
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Hi,
Training for wire breaks starts at a high altitude in free flight. The zooms, simulated break at 60 knots and pushover are repeated many times until the student performs them instinctively. Interestingly we don't do it like this where I am learning to fly. We are taught to plan every launch as featuring a wire break and to preplan up to what altitudes to land straight, turn back or fly the pattern as part of the takeoff-check. During training we are to say these altitudes and actions out loud. Before soloing we do a minimum of three excercises where the instructor pulls the knob at some point during the launch. So it's the real thing, nothing "emergency-like" there. We do not train wire-breaks at altitude. Still I feel very safe. And I also found pushing over, gaining normal speed and then attitude the natural thing to do. It helps to have a plan as to what to do next but up to there it really is instinct. I have not heard of any of my fellow-students _not_ reacting that way. Ciao, MM -- Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn. +49 228 624013. http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de "What did you expect to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the prairie!" Basil Fawlty |
#105
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Marian Aldenhövel writes
We are taught to plan every launch as featuring a wire break and to preplan up to what altitudes to land straight, turn back or fly the pattern as part of the takeoff-check. During training we are to say these altitudes and actions out loud. Here in the UK, the last part of our pre-flight check-list is "Eventualities", the main part of which is planning in advance what to do in the event of a launch failure. This includes deciding on the approach speed, and what you are going to do if you can't land ahead, such as turning downwind, for example, in which case you confirm which direction such a turn would be in. It specifically doesn't mention altitude, however (disclaimer: at least not the way I've been taught!). The drill if the cable breaks is to put the nose down and hold it down until you reach the pre-decided speed and assess whether or not you can land ahead. This specifically isn't done in reference to the altimeter but visually by how the field looks in front of you, and the preference is always to land ahead if at all possible. I understand most accidents from the winch happen after the actual failure, subsequent to the decision not to land ahead and instead turn. Though I'm quite compulsive in monitoring my height as I climb during the launch so always know how high the aircraft //thinks// it is if there is a failure, the only role the altimeter plays for me after a cable break will be after I've already established the attitude of the aircraft to gain flying speed and decided what I'm going to do, at which point I might back up the decision with a glance at the dial. I'm fortunate in that the field I fly from is of a size where, generally, if you can't land ahead you have ample height to turn downwind and fly an abbreviated circuit. Of course, it doesn't change the fact that I may not always have this luxury if I fly from elsewhere. Like you, I approach every winch launch with the expectation it will fail, and on the occasion that it has have recovered quite instinctively. That said, on each occasion (whether practised or real), there has always been the comfort of the drill playing over the rush of adrenaline in my head, " hold the nose down", "check the speed", "clear the cable", "land ahead?", "check the speed" even as "instinct" flew the recovery. I'm of the opinion that instinct alone leads very easily to complacency, and I suspect that this is the real killer in these situations. Before soloing we do a minimum of three excercises where the instructor pulls the knob at some point during the launch. So it's the real thing, nothing "emergency-like" there. We do not train wire-breaks at altitude. I remember when first being taught the recovery, the initial demonstration was at altitude, which was useful, but it was then followed up with the instructor pulling the release and demonstrating for real, from about 100' as I recall. After that, you could guarantee that if you missed the "Eventualities" out of your pre-flight checks, the instructor would use that as an object lesson and pull the release on you, and it was then practised intermittently at various heights and in various versions in the same way throughout the rest of your training whenever a mischievous instructor felt like a change It was also one of the last things emphasised and re-practiced (always with the instructor pulling the release on the launch, typically without warning) before you were sent solo - actually, it was the emphasis on this and noticing my instructor making discrete requests of the ground crew to go find ballast that led me to guessing what it was he had up his sleeve when that time came! Cable-break practice also features heavily in our various check-flights, especially, I've noticed if we happen to be operating that day from the shorter cross-runway, where the "land ahead" options are some what brutally curtailed in comparison to our normal luxury of space! Still I feel very safe. And I also found pushing over, gaining normal speed and then attitude the natural thing to do. The BGA's apparent emphasis on safe winch launch operation is such that it featured so heavily in my training that even though I still get a twinge of apprehensive adrenaline when sat attached to the cable contemplating the launch ahead, I do feel very safe and prepared to deal with any thing that might go wrong on the launch, backed up by the fact that on a couple of occasions I've since had cause to prove I myself able to do just that since going solo. On the other hand, the idea of a badly timed cable break on aerotow terrifies me! Then again, I have about 170 wire launches to my name now compared to just two aerotows -- Bill Gribble http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk - Learn from the mistakes of others. - You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself. |
#106
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M B wrote:
At 21:42 22 June 2005, Stefan wrote: M B wrote: In my experience, I have seen and been a part of confusion in the cockpit. One pilot is saying one thing and the other is contradicting it. I've also had both pilots on the controls at the same time, with opposite pressures applied. I'm more and more, well, surprized, what you have been experiencing while flying. I've never seen, even less been part of such a thing. Quite common in US accident reports, especially among very experienced pilots. Airline black box transcripts almost always show there was some CRM problem that contributed to a difficulty. I've seen CRM miscommunications result in less-than-perfect results several times with others, too. Most commonly I've seen it when instructors initiate emergency procedures as a 'surprise.' Gear-up landing, and a landout when too far from the end of the runway on a 'rope break' procedure where the student was too slow reacting. As pilots become more skilled, the reasons for accidents seem to shift from pure stick skill issues to other things, particularly CRM. I would guess that if there was a black box in every two-seat glider accident, some CRM problem would be listed as contributing. Communicate before the flight, define the roles and adhere to it. Who will do what? Who will fly in an emergency? Communicate during the flight, and do so clearly. Excellent, excellent advice. Something I think that is not done formally very often in some places... And, you may ask, if the other pilot is doing something I don't like? Well, if I don't trust the other pilot, I won't fly with him. If he doesn't trust me, I don't want him to fly with me. Simple as that, very basic CRM stuff. (It needn't be offensive when I say I don't like his way of flying, because I'm not implying that he's a bad pilot, I'm just saying our styles are incompatible.) The trouble is: you have to fly with him once to find out. Hopefully it is a benign flight... I'm surprized that, as it seems, you can become an instructor in the USA without knowing such basic stuff. You're not supposed to be able to. CRM is an emphasis area for all practical tests for all pilot ratings in the USA. However, there are something like 14 'emphasis areas' so it ends up getting buried, and trivially tested. And despite the test standards being very specific in the 'you have the controls' phrase for exchanging controls, I've had examiners say 'I've got the airplane' and have students say other arcane phrases, and sometimes just release all of the controls completely in a challenging situation, with no words at all! So now I rehearse the 'you have the controls' stuff for the first flight with everyone, even other instructors! It seems funny (they should know that, right?) but I haven't had problems since. When I learned in the UK, the practice was Statement: "You have control" Response: "I have control" or Statement: "I have control" (usually instructor) Response: "You have control" It's clear and there is no confusion. Why add a fourth word? Since presumably if you have the controls, you also have control of the aircraft. Personally I think it should be the standard between instructor and student and between pilots flying dual. When I fly dual with another pilot or with a passenger that might get the stick for a while, I brief this during pre-flight checks and reiterate it before changing control. At my club we do something similar with winch launch radio signals during the launch process. Nothing else is accepted. "Up slack, up slack, up slack" "Go, go, go" "Stop, stop, stop" I have known of an instructor and tow pilot flying together where no one was in control and the glider exceeded VNe slightly in a dive and was recovered gently once the situation was realized. It could have ended otherwise. Frank |
#107
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#108
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Marian Aldenhövel wrote:
Hi, Training for wire breaks starts at a high altitude in free flight. The zooms, simulated break at 60 knots and pushover are repeated many times until the student performs them instinctively. Interestingly we don't do it like this where I am learning to fly. We are taught to plan every launch as featuring a wire break and to preplan up to what altitudes to land straight, turn back or fly the pattern as part of the takeoff-check. During training we are to say these altitudes and actions out loud. Before soloing we do a minimum of three excercises where the instructor pulls the knob at some point during the launch. So it's the real thing, nothing "emergency-like" there. We do not train wire-breaks at altitude. Still I feel very safe. And I also found pushing over, gaining normal speed and then attitude the natural thing to do. It helps to have a plan as to what to do next but up to there it really is instinct. I have not heard of any of my fellow-students _not_ reacting that way. Ciao, MM I was first introduced to the push-over at altitude while being checked out for winch launch at RAF Bicester. It's a useful exercise for experiencing the amount of push over required and to see the amount of dirt and dust that might float up from the floor. It can be alarming the first time and ignored subsequently. Frank |
#109
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At 14:24 28 June 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
At my club we do something similar with winch launch radio signals during the launch process. Nothing else is accepted. 'Up slack, up slack, up slack' 'Go, go, go' 'Stop, stop, stop' Forgive me but this must sound like Yogi Bear conducting the launch ! In the U.K. we have the following system to help avoid confusion of a mishear Take up slack ( Three words ) All Out ( Two words ) Stop ( One word ) |
#110
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At 14:24 28 June 2005, F.L. Whiteley wrote:
When I learned in the UK, the practice was Statement: 'You have control' Response: 'I have control' or Statement: 'I have control' (usually instructor) Response: 'You have control' It's clear and there is no confusion. Why add a fourth word? Since presumably if you have the controls, you also have control of the aircraft. Personally I think it should be the standard between instructor and student and between pilots flying dual. When I fly dual with another pilot or with a passenger that might get the stick for a while, I brief this during pre-flight checks and reiterate it before changing control. At my club we do something similar with winch launch radio signals during the launch process. Nothing else is accepted. 'Up slack, up slack, up slack' 'Go, go, go' 'Stop, stop, stop' I have known of an instructor and tow pilot flying together where no one was in control and the glider exceeded VNe slightly in a dive and was recovered gently once the situation was realized. It could have ended otherwise. Frank For winch launching in particular I've always favoured. 'Take up Slack,Take up Slack' 'All Out, All Out, All Out' 'Stop, Stop Stop' It produces three different rythms and makes the three phrases distinct even when readability is 1. Everybody gets hot under the collar if you mistake 'stop stop stop' for 'go go go' with 230hp of diesel screaming in your ear. Given the choice I'd go for the BGA 'lights' system over radio control every time. |
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