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#101
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Margy,
I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and vouchers. As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both increase teacher pay and improve education. "Margy Natalie" wrote in message ... "G.R. Patterson III" wrote: Judah wrote: That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities make $100,000 an episode... Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around here, the going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for regulars. By comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about 50K. According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick, NJ is $51, 927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think this is probably much closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and many top out below that. Somerset High School is about $2,000 lower and NYC about $2,000 higher. Substitutes in Fairfax County, VA get $10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the hour with no benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of that comes off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own). Fairfax is considered a "good paying" district in a very expensive area. 40 miles west of here the pay drops almost $10,000 a year. http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf shows more realistic teacher salaries. Margy George Patterson Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...." |
#102
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"Dude" wrote in message ... Margy, I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and vouchers. As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both increase teacher pay and improve education. I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the schools. First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program? They will have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent with more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting. It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high. What will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay. It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than public school pay. OK, so your argument is what? I would love to have the golden BB for all of education's problems, but I don't see it here. -- Jim in NC |
#103
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I am really tired of hearing this response to vouchers and choice.
First of all, any objection based on the fact that the public schools will be worse off has no value whatsoever. The goal is a better education for our children, not maintaining a public school system at the expense of their education. If the public school system is or is not a part of the best solution does not matter to anyone except those who fear they may not be able to compete in a free market. Also, those who have swallowed your logic are guilty of single step thinking. You point out a plausible outcome based on a market reaction, and then pretend that the result will either continue to trend in that direction, or reach a static state. Markets involving people don't work that way. Let's say that all the "best students" leave the public schools and go to private schools. So what? What students are left, and what is the result? All of these issues can easily be addressed if you drop the requirement to save programs and interest groups, and concentrate on setting up a system that will best serve the students and society. Maybe you just don't believe in free markets? If you do, then tell us what you think needs to be addressed to get your support for a voucher system. Just remember - only the kids count! I am not saying that vouchers are a golden BB. I am saying that free market systems out perform master planned systems almost everytime they are tried. Its a pretty solid argument. In case you want them, here are some specific responses to your points - I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the schools. Free markets reward talent and attract capital. The better teachers will gravitate towards the better jobs, which will be able to afford higher pay because they are more popular with the parents and are more economically efficient. First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program? Everyone, if its really a choice. In a real voucher program - everyone gets a voucher that they take to the school of their choice. They will have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent with more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting. It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high. First, as more private groups start schools, price competition will bring tuition down. Yes, some schools will charge more, and wealthier kids will have advantages, as they do now. However, you seem to think that poorer parents are less involved because they are poorer? huh? Thats like saying the wealthier pilots who buy bigger faster planes are better pilots - which is crap. The more involved parents WILL be better consumers, and their children will have advantages as well. What is wrong with this? They have advantages now. What will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay. This is not the part that increases pay, and once again you are worried about the school, not the kids in it. Assuming your prediction is accurate (if you can predict the stock market as well, please send us your tips), we have a more homogenous group of kids with similar problems that we can focus on in schools that will become more capable of helping them. In fact, some schools could become known for their ability to help these children and be sought out for that value by parents. As for achievement, why do we care where the achievement is? What we want is more achievement in general, whether their is more or less in any particular type of school is not the goal. If the public schools become known for low achievement, they will lose their students and disappear. So what? If the students are all being educated elsewhere there is no consequence to the students. I doubt this will be the result because their ARE good, popular, public schools. It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than public school pay. An indictment of the public school system if there ever was one. However, even if I cede your point and agree that teachers will be making less money (which I do not believe will be the result), then so what? Once again, its the students that count. I believe I can explain this phenomenon if you insist. Free markets work! |
#104
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Morgans wrote: How is that improving the school, or increasing pay. I have no interest in improving the school. I have a lot of interest in improving the student. Vouchers will allow people who have decent kids to get them into good schools that they can't afford now. That gets them a better education, and they can make the most of it. The kids that remain in the public schools won't be any worse off than they are now. George Patterson Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...." |
#105
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"Dude" wrote Free markets work! You don't get it. Education is not a free market. If it was, we would fire the students that did not keep up, or were habitually tardy, or had drug problems, or a hundred more things. We try teach everyone the same thing. Until we change that, we are destined to fail. I take you are not a teacher, or have ever been one, or have been closely involved in the classroom. I can only say again, you just don't get it. -- Jim in NC |
#106
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That's pretty weak.
I answer your questions, and you respond by questioning my experience and understanding. And so I guess you are a teacher? So? Bring your wisdom and spread it around. I have taught plenty of people, plenty of things. I have tutored. I have taught soldiers as an officer. I have taught employees as a manager. I have coached middle school basketball. I have been a student. I pay enough in taxes every year to pay for a teacher, or two. I am a citizen, and I vote. Your ad hominem remarks hold no weight whatsoever. Claiming you are correct because you know more without displaying it is pitiful, ignorant, and closed minded. Pick up the pace, or FALLOUT! "Morgans" wrote in message ... "Dude" wrote Free markets work! You don't get it. Education is not a free market. If it was, we would fire the students that did not keep up, or were habitually tardy, or had drug problems, or a hundred more things. We try teach everyone the same thing. Until we change that, we are destined to fail. I take you are not a teacher, or have ever been one, or have been closely involved in the classroom. I can only say again, you just don't get it. -- Jim in NC |
#107
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Will I change your mind? I know that answer. I choose not to debate you, in this forum. There are others far better than me to debate this issue. Let them waste their time. I do know that until education has a chance to be run by educators, and not elected common folk, and they have the ability to raise funds as they feel they are needed, we are all in for a long struggle. One fix as you propose, will not fix everything. End of my contributions. Flame on, oh nameless wise man. -- Jim in NC |
#108
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Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate on
either public education or gun control? |
#109
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ummm, lessee, mmm nope!
"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message link.net... Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate on either public education or gun control? |
#110
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Margy Natalie wrote in :
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote: Judah wrote: That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities make $100,000 an episode... Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around here, the going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for regulars. By comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about 50K. According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick, NJ is $51, 927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think this is probably much closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and many top out below that. Somerset High School is about $2,000 lower and NYC about $2,000 higher. Substitutes in Fairfax County, VA get $10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the hour with no benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of that comes off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own). Fairfax is considered a "good paying" district in a very expensive area. 40 miles west of here the pay drops almost $10,000 a year. http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf shows more realistic teacher salaries. Margy George Patterson Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...." My wife is a teacher, and while I would love for her to earn more, if you take her salary and divide it by number of days worked, she does very well indeed. To compare teacher salaries per year to other occupations leaves out the summers, holidays, etc.... Even though she makes less than 40K, she still makes well over $200 per day that she actually works.... -- ET "A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."---- Douglas Adams |
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