Europe as joke

In article , "tadaa" wrote:

We're asking for money to build schools and hospitals, and if you can't
afford some school books and beds, then you're in worse shape than we
thought...

So when you told Europeans to f*ck off because they didn't agree to the war
didn't include their paychecks?

You might note that we're not asking Europe to give money to the US,
we're asking them to help pay for rebuilding a country they didn't give
a damn about until the US went in to kick out one of the worst dictators
on the planet.

The US is absorbing tens of billions of dollars of military costs, we'd
just like Europe to help build a country that won't turn out like all of
the *other* Mideast cesspools.

And, oddly enough, many European companies are lined up to help do the
rebuilding. As long as the US pays for it. Again.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

On or about 26 Oct 2003 02:05:10 GMT, (BUFDRVR)
allegedly uttered:

Well, put, but the US is among the nations (as is the UK) opposing the
majority vote

Well, perhaps you should say US politicians as most senior military leaders
feel the current policy renders the alliance impotent.

Indeed, and they'd be right, but they're not saying that the alliance
should move to the majority system. Until they and the rest of the
alliance are prepared to change, arguing about it is futile.

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - Drink Faster

"Peter Kemp"

Nope, the F-104s left a few years back, to be replaced temporarily by
leased UK Tornado F.3s, and now the F-16s, pending the operational
arrival of Typhoon.


---

Peter, the Italian F-104s never left service. They are still in front-line
service sitting QRA. During 2003 some of the AMI F-104s visited UK airshows:

http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow03/waddo/f104.jpg

http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/airshow0...three/f104.jpg

TJ

So when you told Europeans to f*ck off because they didn't agree to the
war
didn't include their paychecks?

You might note that we're not asking Europe to give money to the US,
we're asking them to help pay for rebuilding a country they didn't give
a damn about until the US went in to kick out one of the worst dictators
on the planet.

The US is absorbing tens of billions of dollars of military costs, we'd
just like Europe to help build a country that won't turn out like all of
the *other* Mideast cesspools.

And, oddly enough, many European companies are lined up to help do the
rebuilding. As long as the US pays for it. Again.

And European countries have agreed to give more money when and if the
decicion power is transferred to UN or to the Iraqis. So as long you want to
run the show, be prepared to pay for it.

On 25 Oct 2003 14:10:32 GMT, "Emmanuel.Gustin" wrote:

Cub Driver wrote:

: For fifty years, the U.S. poured men & money into Europe. If you have
: not created a credible military force in half a century, when will you
: ever manage it?

About now, apparently. Decades of pleas from US
presidents to achieve a stronger European defence
have failed to achieve what the hostile behaviour
of this US administration towards its former allies
has produced: A serious drive to come towards an
European defence. Actively sabotaged from Washington,
of course, but one can't have everything...

Emmanuel Gustin

He said "credible". Forces made up of different systems/units
from a collection of small, ineffective forces is not "credible",
especially when directed by committees of committees.

Al Minyard

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:45:55 +0200, Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Alan Minyard schrieb:

It is a EU problem, let the EU fix it. You cannot expect the US to act like
a servant of the EU. You do not support us, you can go to hell when
you want help.

You didn´t read what I posted before, did you?

It is irresponsible to act like this. And imorale.

Al Minyard

Gruss, Roman

It is perfectly responsible and morale. What is not is the Europeans
expecting the US to bail you out every time you make a mess
of things and then tell us what bad people we are. From now
on, you make a mess, you clean it up. It is time for US troops
to stop dying for Europe. If you want to defend yourselves for
a change, fine, if not then you can fall to whatever mullah/dictator
is next. We no longer care.

Al Minyard

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:28:37 +0200, Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Alan Minyard schrieb:


You did not learn anything from WWII except to call for the US to
defend you.

How do you know what I have learned?

From your postings

We (those you mentioned) try to face our history and approach pardon
and respect.. other nations still neglect their record. Nations who
are members of "the coalition".

You mean your record of mass murder, surrender, and shame? You
cannot just forget it, you have to do something to make up for it.

That explains the discrimination against the Turks, etc. in Germany?

What does this have to do with neglecting genocides?

And:Which discrimination? Immigrants are granted double citizenship,
equal rights, equal education.

A problem is the integration, but thats based upon decisions made by
the affected - if you don´t want to integrate yourself (like learning
the language, as many turks of the first and second generation did).

In other words, if they do not speak the language they are sub-human,
my what nice folks you are.

You worried about Serbia only because it threatened
European interests.

In which aspect? The civil war blocked the land route to the EU member
Greece and the closed Danube, but what else besides threatened morale
and justice? Involving surrounding countries in the civil war?

The spread of a war is not uncommon in European history.

So, where are Europes interests affected=

That is exactly why we are careful about declaring and pushing towards
war. We see it everyday what war does to nations, people, cities and
even landscapes. We don´t want it.

You are cowards.

Man, your spreading buzzwords, but you aren´t argueing.

I am not worried about Serbia, I am worried about the radical
nationalists of any given group in the Balkans, no matter if they rant
for "Great Serbia", "Great Albania" or whatever.. the UCK isn´t any
better then the bosnian serbs and the mercenaries who fought along
them.

You are not worried about anything, after all, the US will come and
clean up your mess, as usual.

Again, How do you know what I am worried about? You love to simplify.

From your posts.

The moment we pull out of Bosnia, Sarajevo will be back to the times
of sniper alley and bloodbaths on market places. Do you (demanding
"PULL OUT THE US FORCES!") really want that?

We no longer care. If the EU wants to be anti-US, then they can
take care of their own problems.

If the USA wants to be isolationist, it may do it, but it will harm
itself and others.

And again, it is immorale. You don´t care if people suffer?

Not if they continually mock and deride us. The "good times" are over.
If you expect us to clean up your messes than you should at least
show us some respect.

Saddam killed more Muslims than Slobo did. Why wasn't that genocide?

Who says it wasn´t? If you consider the actions against Kurds, thats
genocide. And it is a shame that our society (you, us, everyone
dealing with that dicator in the 1980s) accepted it without taking
direct initiative.

And the Euroweinies did exactly what about it???

Nothing. Or as much as the USA.

Gee, that must be why Saddam is no longer in power and all of those
US Soldiers are in Iraq.


Arafat is waging genocidal war against the Jews (picking up where
Europe left off). Why haven't you intervened in the Middle East
against him?

Why haven´t the USA?

You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.

Wrong. The USA/Israeli cooperation lasts only about 35 years. Until
about Rabins time as ambassador in Washington and until the Nixon
administration gained power Israel cooperated with Europe in terms of
weapons development and cooperation.

What have the USA done to intervene against Arafat, his Fatah or
Hamas? Nothing. Or as much as Europe.

What have the Israelis requested? We supply them with arms and
money (lots of money), Europe does nothing except sell arms to
the arabs.

Any the despicable Europeans have done what? Oh, yes, that is
right, they have done *nothing*. (Except of course, the Brits and the
Poles).

And Spain, and Czech Republic, and Denmark, and Italy, and... well,
even Germany. AWACS and the Fuchs in Kuwait.

Kuwait is not at war. We appreciate the European Countries that have
supported the US, the rest of you can go to hell.

Al Minyard

The world isn´t black and white. It´s shades of grey.

Gruss, Roman

Not as gray as you would like, we see who our friends are, and we
will take care of them, the French, Germans, etc can rot for all we
care.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard schrieb:

You did not learn anything from WWII except to call for the US to
defend you.

How do you know what I have learned?

From your postings

I am certain you didn´t. I haven´t expressed enough to state that
assumption.

So, please stop insulting people. It is neither friendly, nor
appropriate. Thank you.

We (those you mentioned) try to face our history and approach pardon
and respect.. other nations still neglect their record. Nations who
are members of "the coalition".

You mean your record of mass murder, surrender, and shame?

Me? Man, I am 26 years old and I know what happened. I am aware of it
as most Germans of my age are. We know those who suffered and we think
of the dead. We respect them. And we learn from those who survived to
tell us about horrors - to prevent and evade those horrors today.

If you would have ever talked to someone who lived through a
bombardment or through a POW camp or through a NS concentration camp,
through war and violence, you would be have as loud..

You
cannot just forget it, you have to do something to make up for it.

Like giving Israel three dolphin class subs for the price of one? No,
thats a nice deal, but it doesn´t make up mass murder. This has to be
done in direct contact, a thing that we practiced at schools. I have
friends in Israel as I have friends in Palestine...

That explains the discrimination against the Turks, etc. in Germany?

What does this have to do with neglecting genocides?

Great, no reply on the question. Very civilizes manner.

And:Which discrimination? Immigrants are granted double citizenship,
equal rights, equal education.

A problem is the integration, but thats based upon decisions made by
the affected - if you don´t want to integrate yourself (like learning
the language, as many turks of the first and second generation did).

In other words, if they do not speak the language they are sub-human,
my what nice folks you are.

Ah? Where did I write anything like this? Can you say "prejudice"?
Thats what you live of.

Our society is open for everyone who wants to participate in. If
people don´t want to do it, they stay within their folks and live
their lives.. What is the second biggest turkish citiy? Berlin. No
problem with it.

We don´t force people into integration, even if it means that society
pays for their living (welfare). On integration, we share the problem
the USA has with hispanic immigrants - they can rely on their folks
for a living and thus never fully integrate into society..

That is exactly why we are careful about declaring and pushing towards
war. We see it everyday what war does to nations, people, cities and
even landscapes. We don´t want it.

You are cowards.

Don´t tell me what I am.

Man, your spreading buzzwords, but you aren´t argueing.

See?

I am not worried about Serbia, I am worried about the radical
nationalists of any given group in the Balkans, no matter if they rant
for "Great Serbia", "Great Albania" or whatever.. the UCK isn´t any
better then the bosnian serbs and the mercenaries who fought along
them.

You are not worried about anything, after all, the US will come and
clean up your mess, as usual.

Weird. Just before you said I was worried about Serbia. Now what?

And again, it is immorale. You don´t care if people suffer?

Not if they continually mock and deride us. The "good times" are over.
If you expect us to clean up your messes than you should at least
show us some respect.

Where did the inhabitants of Bosnia or Kosovo "mock and deride" you?
They need _our_ help. Yours and ours.

And the Euroweinies did exactly what about it???

Nothing. Or as much as the USA.

Gee, that must be why Saddam is no longer in power and all of those
US Soldiers are in Iraq.

You don´t read arguments, do you?

You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.

Wrong. The USA/Israeli cooperation lasts only about 35 years. Until
about Rabins time as ambassador in Washington and until the Nixon
administration gained power Israel cooperated with Europe in terms of
weapons development and cooperation.

No reply on it, again.

What have the Israelis requested? We supply them with arms and
money (lots of money), Europe does nothing except sell arms to
the arabs.

German Bundeswehr cooperates with IDF/Zahal (Navy, AF as much as I
know). We share technology (like the MTU license for the Merkava tank
engine) as we deal on a commercial base (like the Dolphin sub deal).
And Germany did give Israel money.

Any the despicable Europeans have done what? Oh, yes, that is
right, they have done *nothing*. (Except of course, the Brits and the
Poles).


And Spain, and Czech Republic, and Denmark, and Italy, and... well,
even Germany. AWACS and the Fuchs in Kuwait.

Kuwait is not at war.

But close to it. Iraq isn´t at war, either. Your big boss said it, but
his assistent secretary of defense just learned it the hard way. :-(

We appreciate the European Countries that have
supported the US, the rest of you can go to hell.

Ah, I love a discussion based on friendly manners.

Not as gray as you would like, we see who our friends are, and we
will take care of them, the French, Germans, etc can rot for all we
care.

I don´t want to be a friend of yours. I have many friends in the USA,
people with manners, knowledge (not prejudices or fixed ideas),
friendly people.

Al Minyard

Gruss, Roman

On 25 Oct 2003 17:32:07 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

We should pull all of our Forces out of Europe, and state that they will
never
return. We have defended those weak kneed little ****s long enough, time
for them to do their own dirty work!!!! We should also kill any arms deals
with
France and Germany.

Not likely, but what is highly likely over the next four years is the movement
of European based US forces east and southeast. Naval, Air and land forces will
move closer to where the action is (Asia) and in return for huge investment
(bases need to be modernized) they'll find a more accepting population, better
training spaces and much more cooperative governments. I think we'll keep some
of the headquartersin western Europe, but every other uniformed US personel
will leave where they are currently stationed. Should be interesting.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Roger that. I was a bit upset when I posted the above, but while my language may
have been intemperate, my position is the same. I guess I need to be more accurate
with my definition of "Europe", I have no problem with US troops in Poland, etc, but
Germany, France, Belgium, etc should never again see a US Soldier on their
soil, or cooperating with their "forces".

Al Minyard

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:05:06 -0700, "??????? ??????" wrote:

For the rebuilding of Iraq, the United States has pledged $20 billion,
Japan has pledged $1.5 billion, and the European Union has pledged
$235 million.

How can anyone take Europe seriously as a force in the world?

Why should they pay for what the US broke? You see, if Europe begin to shell
out for every country the US invades, it might become a pattern. If Mr. Bush
does not know how best to blow his mint, let him donate those billions he
spends on war in iraq to some charity.

Ivan the Bear
=Nothing per-r-rsonal, just business=


That's fine. Now you can defend yourselves, feed yourselves,
etc. If you do not contribute to establishing as peaceful,
democratic regime in Iraq, then do not come to the US
expecting foreign aid, trade, and military support. Russia
can de-fuel its own rusting subs, try to feed its own people
etc.

Good luck, you will need it.

Al Minyard