Capt. Al Haynes sorta OT.

A year ago December the teachers in our district went on strike for
better pay and benefits. The conventional wisdom is that your typical
public school teacher is lucky to make $30K after many hard years of
teaching. Since teachers salaries are a matter of public record a full
page ad was taken out in the Sunday paper the first weekend of the
strike. Every teacher in the school district was listed, by name, and
how much they made for that current school year. Turns out the average
teacher salary is $41.5 here with 25-30% of the teachers making more
than $50K per year. Starting pay was mid $20's. You could literally
see the support for the teachers evaporate on that Sunday. A settlement
was reached shortly there after. A teacher strike will not ever happen
here again.


Morgans wrote:

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.


You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments. You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost impossible to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a year.

Richard Hertz wrote:

"Jeffrey Voight" wrote in message
...
Not Matt, but I would point out that a question wasn't asked. A
statement about how the only work 180 days out of the year was posed.
As far as 7 hour days, I can assure you that it's significantly longer.
The 7 hour day is the portion in which the teacher gets to handle
students on a face-to-face basis. The remainder of the day is unbilled
and fully expected. This is the time that the teacher spends building
lesson plans (or reviewing last year's plan or reviewing somebody else's
plan), grading student papers, and, I assume, trying to rebuild their
immune systems to deal with the petri dish that they visit 180 days out
of the year.

Correct - I asked no questions but made a statement that does seem to
infuriate teachers.
I am sick of teachers who whine about this "take home work." Most salaried
professionals I know also do not work a 40 hour work week. Teachers get to
work from the comfort of their home for those hours. Also, after a few
years the lesson plans are made and very little work is needed after the
work day.


HMMMMM.... Let's see, this year I'm FCPS Aerospace Educator in Residence,
Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center, last year I taught 7th and 8th grade science
(self-contained special ed and team taught) the year before I taught 7th grade
science (team and self-contained) 7th grade math (team and self-contained) and
basic skills, the year before 7th grade science (team and self-contained) Math
(team, different teacher than the next year) and basic skills, the year before
that a 5th/6th split at a pysical disablities center and the year before that a
6th grade with students classified anywhere from moderately retarded to on grade
level, but emotionally disturbed. I haven't been able to use the same plans
ever and when you do manage to get a nice groove going the curriculum gets
changed!



As far as why the top 5% of any particular graduating class don't become
teachers, it's because it isn't very lucrative. It might be extremely
satisfying on a personal level, but it doesn't bring in much money.

Also, just because a person graduated in the bottom 1/4 of one's class
does not mean that they belong in the bottom 1/4 of society. It means
that when measured against their peers (where peers is defined as those
people that graduated at the same time from the same school and same
degree program [which is similar to saying 'arbitrary']), those
individuals had 3/4 of their peers get better grades.

Compared to those who chose not to get an education, even these
'poor-performers' have a significant advantage even though the
uneducated don't have to carry around a sign saying 'graduated in the
bottom 1/4 of my class'.

And, you do realize that the teachers don't get paid for the remainder
of the days that they don't work. Some of them do spread their income
so that the summer doesn't hurt so much, but you can do the same by
banking income and retrieving it on an as-needed basis.

Yes, and I value my vacation time more than the extra pay. This is why I am
going to switch careers. Note that teaching (as far as I am aware) has far
greater supply than demand. The most locigal presumption is that the
benefits are very desirable compared to the working hours.


Why would we give them retirement packages? Because if we didn't,
nobody would become a teacher. There would be no incentive at all. Why
would we want teachers? I, for one, want teachers to educate children
because I plan on retiring someday. If I am the only one left with an
education, my retirement isn't going to be very comfortable because I
won't be able to admire young, pert nurses. I won't be able to have
smart architects design nice living quarters. I won't have smart
engineers to build my next vehicle. Teachers enable all these things.

Perhaps - however the benefit packages are way out of line. I also think
that the government run system is less than ideal. Private schools do not
give the same benefits packages, but retain some excellent teachers due to
the better working environment. Private schools also pay less.

I do concede that I am not in a normal situation. After working 11 years
programming I am in a position (not able to retire) that enables me to take
a substantial salary reduction in order to teach.


The alternative to the retirement plans that kill the tax payers is
pant-loads of uneducated youth. Uneducated youth don't make good
incomes. Uneducated, underpaid youth don't pay taxes. Non-tax-paying
youth mean that *you* get to pay the rest. How much can you afford?


We already have pant-loads of uneducated youth. I know my local school
district is doing an abysmal job. I am horrified at what the administrators
and teachers are forcing on the local taxpayers and children.
(inefficiencies and poor syllabi)

Jeff...

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Richard Hertz wrote:

Yeah, but they only have to work 180 days out of the year and work only

7

hour days and then get retirement plans that are killing the tax
payers.

And how much teaching experience do you have? I'm guessing none by your
response.


Why not answer his question, Matthew?

Answer this one, too: Why is it that over 3/4ths of teachers come from
the
bottom quartile of their graduating classes?

Rob Perkins wrote:

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:12:01 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:

I don't think that is true, but the statistic I know is true states that most
teachers leave teaching in the first 5 years. The reason? The pay isn't worth
the headaches, time, etc.

There's more than just salary levels behind the paucity of good
teachers.

I'm personally acquainted with one teacher who quit after one year.
The reason? The school board stood behind a pair of wealthy parents
who wanted their daughter to get away with cheating on his final test.
When he refused his "contract was not renewed."


Sad but often true. That's just one of the "headaches" I was talking about. I know
a few very talented teachers who have vowed NEVER to teach GT (gifted and talented)
again unless all of the students were orphans. They loved the kids, but the parents
drove them away.

Margy

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

Richard Hertz wrote:
I am changing careers. After working for 12 years in the computer science
industry I am going to "semi-retire" to teach math and computer science.
Many family members and acquaintances teach and when I compare their
lifestyle and working hours and stress to mine I conclude that the pay cut
is worth the reduced hours and the retirement benefits are almost criminal.
(in my opinion)

Let us know what you think after completing your first year of teaching.
Good luck! I've often thought of this as well, but I know several
teachers very well and low stress isn't in their job description.


One of our newer teachers who left industry to teach stated at the end of his
first year "now I know why teachers have the summer off, they need it to
recover". He said he had never been so tired and burned out in his life. He's
still teaching and rather good at it.

Margy

Richard Hertz wrote:

Most teachers I know are out the door long before then.

burn out

Also, most other salaried professionals work longer hours than teachers for
no extra pay either, so the gripes about extra take-home work falls on
uncaring ears.

True, but most of my salaried friends make 2X or 3X what I make.

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels. Even when unemployment is
at historic lows this is the case.

REALLY?!?!? Send them to Northern VA where we had lots of unfilled positions
last year with subs filling in. For quite a while 1/3 of our special ed
teachers were on emergengy certificates. We can't find enough teachers to fill
the rooms.


I oppose all those government gravy pensions. (Military/combat service
excluded)

One other big problem is the non-meritocracy of government/school systems.
Pay is based on years of service and so-called education credits. In the
"real" world pay is based on performance, merit, etc.

Most of the problems lie with the administrations and the general concept of
"free" or public/government run education.

"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...
Yeah, teachers only work 195 days a year (but they are only paid for 195
days a
year). Work 7 hours???!!?!?! For the past 3 years my New Year's
Resolution
was to leave school before 6PM (I get there at 7:30), I usually stuck with
it
until almost late January :-). The retirement is usually decent if you
stick
with it for 30 or 35 years as opposed to the federal government or
military
where you get a good pension at 20.

Margy

Richard Hertz wrote:

Yeah, but they only have to work 180 days out of the year and work only
7
hour days and then get retirement plans that are killing the tax payers.

"Stu Gotts" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:59:54 GMT, "Matthew S. Whiting"
wrote:

wrote:

Jay Honeck wrote:


Capt. Haynes is a retired airline captain, and a sought-after
speaker
on the
mashed-potato circuit. As such he should set for life, and pretty
much
rolling in money.


There are some retired TWA pilots that need to work to make ends
meet.
There
are some recently retired pilots from "reorganized" carriers who
have
lost a
good portion of their retirement.

That is truly infortunate, but I have a hard time feeling too sorry
for
folks that made well over $100K/year and didn't sock away a little on
their own for retirement. I make less than most senior airline
pilots
and I'm not planning on having SS be available when I retire nor my
company pension. If one or both are still there, that will be
gravey.


Then, there's those overpaid school teachers in California who
retire
at 100%,
get COLA increases from a bankrupt state, and who are rolling in
dough.~

I'm not familiar with CA (thankfully!), but in most states teachers
make
a LOT less than airline pilots.

And put up with mounds more bull**** for about 10 hours a day and at
least 20 days out of the month.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:


One other big problem is the non-meritocracy of government/school systems.
Pay is based on years of service and so-called education credits. In the
"real" world pay is based on performance, merit, etc.

Yes, that is my biggest beef with the teaching system at present. And
the fact that it is unionized. I don't believe that "professional" and
"union" go together, but then many pilots are union also...


I'm in a "right to work" State so Union doesn't mean anything. The real reason
teachers don't have a merit system is they discovered it was detrimental to the
students. Right now if I write a lesson that really clicks and works great I
make copies and give it to all the other teachers. We help each other out to
give the best to our kids. Under merit pay (which many districts had for a
while) teachers would keep their best lessons to themselves so they could be in
the top 5% to get the raise. It didn't work. Another problem is how to score
teachers to rank them.

Margy

Ben Haas wrote:

Margy Natalie wrote in message ...
Yeah, teachers only work 195 days a year (but they are only paid for 195 days a
year). Work 7 hours???!!?!?! For the past 3 years my New Year's Resolution
was to leave school before 6PM (I get there at 7:30), I usually stuck with it
until almost late January :-). The retirement is usually decent if you stick
with it for 30 or 35 years as opposed to the federal government or military
where you get a good pension at 20.

Margy


Can you share with all of use out in the Internet world your views of
tenure. In the REAL world most of us are judged on performance. As a
contractor, machinist and all the other things I do I get paid for
doing the job right, not because I went through a probationary period
and during that time, laid low, crossed all my T's and dotted my I's
and was awarded a lifetime of " get out of jail free" clause in my
contract. Your answer is awaited.

Tenure isn't always all it's cracked up to be either. I'll admit some teachers
shouldn't be teaching, but they aren't usually the ones the administration wants to do
away with. We have "continuing contracts" rather than tenure and it is hard to get rid
of someone without cause. Of course I do know of a teacher who taught 6th grade for
many years (maybe too many) and when the administration decided they no longer needed
that person they were moved to 1st grade (shape up or ship out). Administrations are
very good at trimming the dead wood if they want to, but it usually takes a full year of
torture.

Margy

I would be happy to. I am qualified to teach math. I don't see what all
the fuss is about.

Granted the pay is less than other jobs, but the benefits far outweigh the
difference in pay.

I am not wrong about the supply of teachers. I know many - some friends,
other family. I also know administrators whom have told me about the local
supply/demand.

I agree there is a shortage of math/science but the ridiculous gov't system
won't budge on silly school credentials to teach, so I have to go through
the BS of a Masters and get "education" education before I can teach.

I have done research about this and would not be changing careers if I
hadn't. It is a sweet deal that teachers have - trust me.


"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to
take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.

You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments. You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost impossible
to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder
every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under
inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a year.
--
Jim in NC

Thank you - someone with real numbers. I have done similar investigating
here and the differential for salaries here on Long Island NY is also not as
bad as teachers complain. While taxpayers are facing layoffs and no raises,
the school districts around here are still doing the usual raises.


"Newps" wrote in message
news:dFnLb.1747$8H.8088@attbi_s03...
A year ago December the teachers in our district went on strike for
better pay and benefits. The conventional wisdom is that your typical
public school teacher is lucky to make $30K after many hard years of
teaching. Since teachers salaries are a matter of public record a full
page ad was taken out in the Sunday paper the first weekend of the
strike. Every teacher in the school district was listed, by name, and
how much they made for that current school year. Turns out the average
teacher salary is $41.5 here with 25-30% of the teachers making more
than $50K per year. Starting pay was mid $20's. You could literally
see the support for the teachers evaporate on that Sunday. A settlement
was reached shortly there after. A teacher strike will not ever happen
here again.


Morgans wrote:

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to
take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.


You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments.
You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost
impossible to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder
every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under
inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a year.

"Richard Hertz" wrote

The bottom line is - there are plenty of qualified people lined up to take
the teaching jobs at the current salary levels.

You are so far out in left field, I only will make a couple comments. You
are completely wrong about the supply of teachers. Perhaps there are
surplus numbers in elementary and humanities, but it is almost impossible to
find science and math teachers who are well qualified, and gets harder every
year.

Teacher's salaries have grown at under the cost of living, under inflation,
and has meant less disposable income, even when taking into account pay
raises for each years service. Not too many professions can claim that
proud distinction.

Come take my teaching job. See how you like it. You won't last a year.
--
Jim in NC