Bonanza crash caught on video

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:
Even above a paved runway? The temps at an airport, especially large
ones (I realize this isn't a large one) are often well above ambient
elsewhere. Concrete and asphalt are great sun collectors.


I think that could make the difference. According to the report, the fire
dept. measured the temperature at the site. Temps issued for weather reports
are taken in the shade under somewhat controlled conditions. They can differ
substantially from the absolute temperature measured on a hot ramp in the sun.


When the tower is reporting 110 degrees here in Phoenix, it's not unusually
for the plane mounted temperature probe (out in the sun, several feet off the
shimmering asphalt) to report temps in excess of 125 degrees.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)


I flew out of Willow Run in Detroit one August day and the temperature
on the ramp was 110 when the weather service was reporting 102. That
was just nasty even with the windows open and the big fan running.

It still sounds like there is more to this story than simple overloading
or density altitude. Hopefully, the NTSB will be able to put the pieces
of the puzzle in place.

Matt

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:



I think that could make the difference. According to the report, the fire
dept. measured the temperature at the site. Temps issued for weather reports
are taken in the shade under somewhat controlled conditions. They can differ
substantially from the absolute temperature measured on a hot ramp in the sun.


When the tower is reporting 110 degrees here in Phoenix, it's not unusually
for the plane mounted temperature probe (out in the sun, several feet off the
shimmering asphalt) to report temps in excess of 125 degrees.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)




And several Mountain Flying books mention that specifically. The
official temperature anywhere is always in the shade. Ever seen a
runway in the shade?

On Sep 11, 10:16 pm, "RST Engineering"
wrote:
The fire department can opine all they want; there is no way in hell that
the temperature was 107 except on a black piece of metal aimed directly at
the sun.

Jim


The other thing I thought was interesting is that the NTSB estimated
60 gal of fuel and 270 lbs of luggage (I've flown with 4 for a week
and a half and only got 150 lbs so this sounds strange). Considering
two women and two men, using an average of 170lbs that would put the
average A36 within 50 lbs of being under gross. I can personally
estimate one of the individuals at 140 lbs but one of the guys they
pulled out looked a bit big. In anycase, its certainly not a clear
case of over gross.

This accident has bothered me a lot. Pilots have been so excited to
jump all over this pilot and say this accident was because he was
taking off from a short (not true), high altitude (not true), airport
over gross (not sure). Its amazing how fast fellow pilots are to try
to say an accident pilot screwed up. It got me thinking. I think
pilots, really, really want to believe that any pilot involved in
fatal accident made a serious mistake and moreover, than it was a dump
mistake. They want to believe this because it allows them to separate
themselves from the accident pilot. Its a way to say "this would never
happen to me". No one wants to believe that this pilot could have done
everything right (or at least as right as most of us usually do) and
still had such a traggic ending. I just hope that if I'm ever in a
serious accident that the news crew points the camera at some random
passer-by and not a pilot. I actually heard one pilot say "I trained
in a Warrior, which is like the accident plane, and I would not have
taken off". Maybe the NTSB should ask him to consult on the next 737
accident as well.

-Robert

pilots, really, really want to believe that any pilot involved in
fatal accident made a serious mistake and moreover, than it was a dump
mistake. They want to believe this because it allows them to separate
themselves from the accident pilot. Its a way to say "this would never
happen to me".

Absolutely true. We all want desperately to believe that every
accident pilot was a dunce, and did something terribly wrong, since to
believe otherwise would place in doubt our decision to launch
ourselves into the wild blue yonder...

The reason many of us are so interested in aviation accidents is
because we are looking for reassurance that we're truly NOT "reckless"
or "crazy" to "fly those little planes", as so many of our
contemporaries like to trumpet. (We've all got friends and relatives
who -- at least privately -- think we're nuts to fly.)

I, for one, am continually analyzing and studying GA accidents, and
comparing them with my own experiences and habits, in an effort to
make sure that my family is as safe as possible.

I believe this is healthy, and a good way to stay that way.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
pilots, really, really want to believe that any pilot involved in
fatal accident made a serious mistake and moreover, than it was a dump
mistake. They want to believe this because it allows them to separate
themselves from the accident pilot. Its a way to say "this would never
happen to me".

Absolutely true. We all want desperately to believe that every
accident pilot was a dunce, and did something terribly wrong, since to
believe otherwise would place in doubt our decision to launch
ourselves into the wild blue yonder...

Absolutely false. I don't feel this way at all and thus we "all" don't
believe as you believe.


The reason many of us are so interested in aviation accidents is
because we are looking for reassurance that we're truly NOT "reckless"
or "crazy" to "fly those little planes", as so many of our
contemporaries like to trumpet. (We've all got friends and relatives
who -- at least privately -- think we're nuts to fly.)

The reason I am so interested in aviation accidents is to learn how to
no be the next accident.


I, for one, am continually analyzing and studying GA accidents, and
comparing them with my own experiences and habits, in an effort to
make sure that my family is as safe as possible.

Bingo, you finally got it right!


I believe this is healthy, and a good way to stay that way.

On this we agree.

Matt

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Sep 11, 10:16 pm, "RST Engineering"
wrote:
The fire department can opine all they want; there is no way in hell that
the temperature was 107 except on a black piece of metal aimed directly at
the sun.

Jim


The other thing I thought was interesting is that the NTSB estimated
60 gal of fuel and 270 lbs of luggage (I've flown with 4 for a week
and a half and only got 150 lbs so this sounds strange). Considering
two women and two men, using an average of 170lbs that would put the
average A36 within 50 lbs of being under gross. I can personally
estimate one of the individuals at 140 lbs but one of the guys they
pulled out looked a bit big. In anycase, its certainly not a clear
case of over gross.

This accident has bothered me a lot. Pilots have been so excited to
jump all over this pilot and say this accident was because he was
taking off from a short (not true), high altitude (not true), airport
over gross (not sure). Its amazing how fast fellow pilots are to try
to say an accident pilot screwed up. It got me thinking. I think
pilots, really, really want to believe that any pilot involved in
fatal accident made a serious mistake and moreover, than it was a dump
mistake. They want to believe this because it allows them to separate
themselves from the accident pilot. Its a way to say "this would never
happen to me". No one wants to believe that this pilot could have done
everything right (or at least as right as most of us usually do) and
still had such a traggic ending. I just hope that if I'm ever in a
serious accident that the news crew points the camera at some random
passer-by and not a pilot. I actually heard one pilot say "I trained
in a Warrior, which is like the accident plane, and I would not have
taken off". Maybe the NTSB should ask him to consult on the next 737
accident as well.

-Robert

Not wishing to seem confrontational but this is a gross over
generalization in my opinion.

I've seen 32 of my fellow pilots killed in accidents and served on
several accident investigation committees and have never felt this way,
nor do I know personally any pilot that I would say feels this way and
would be extremely surprised to learn did indeed feel this way.

--
Dudley Henriques