Almost saw someone crash

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message It's all we have to go on. We are
discussing, if you like, a hypothetical
situation, the details of which have been specifically laid out for us.
You
have no more authority to say she should NOT have been turned in than I
have to say that she SHOULD have been.

Do we have all the details? If all the details were laid out, I would be
inclined to think as you do. However, I want to hear the other side to make
sure all the details are laid out.

Repeat what? Your all-caps shouting is a completely different issue, and
I
vehemently disagree with your position. That's exactly the kind of
asinine
"protect our own" attitude that I'm talking about.

It's assinine, until someone does it to you for reasons you think are
assinine. Remember Mr. Bob Hoover?

I'm not proposing that I, a person that wasn't there and knows nothing
first-hand about the incident, turn her in. I'm proposing the person with
first-hand knowledge of what happened turn her in.

First-hand knowledge? Who else was in the plane with her? Witnesses on the
ground tend to be unreliable with their testimony, even if they have a
pilot's certificate.

A lot of the problems we have as members of the general aviation community
are caused by a few people who screw it up for the rest of us. And as
long
as we sit on our hands and protect those idiots, we have only ourselves to
blame.

Agreed. However, instead of sitting on our hands, I advocate inducing peer
pressure. When the original poster stated that he just turned away after
surmising that the pilot was hopeless, I was dissappointed. I have had
excellent results by applying peer pressure. It can be in the form of a
gentile discussion or a rowdy in-your-face emotional confrontation,
depending on the method that seems appropiate at the time. The results are
far better than the snide snears given out when someone threatens to tattle
to the FAA.

D.

"Capt.Doug" wrote in message
...
It's assinine, until someone does it to you for reasons you think are
assinine. Remember Mr. Bob Hoover?

Right, the old "Bob Hoover" argument. Apparently you've forgotten that no
one turned Hoover in. The FAA people who went after him did so on their own
initiative.

In any case, I'm not suggesting that someone turn someone in when they've
done nothing wrong. The problem with the Hoover case wasn't that the FAA
exercised zeal in prosecuting the case. It's that they were prosecuting a
bogus case.

Frankly, if you really think that Hoover's case has anything to do with
this, it's clear you really don't understand what I'm talking about.

By the way, the word is spelled "asinine".

Agreed. However, instead of sitting on our hands, I advocate inducing peer
pressure. When the original poster stated that he just turned away after
surmising that the pilot was hopeless, I was dissappointed.

Peer pressure is well and good in the situations where a) the person
providing the pressure has the courage to confront a complete stranger face
to face, and b) the complete stranger has the inclination to actually listen
and change their behavior as a result. Either of those conditions are
unusual enough, and to find them at the same time is very rare.

[...] The results are
far better than the snide snears given out when someone threatens to
tattle
to the FAA.

I'm not suggesting threatening to "tattle to the FAA". I'm suggesting
actually *doing* it.

Pete

Flying doesn't have to be outrageously expensive - there are many ways
to afford flying on even a modest income.

This is my gospel, Dylan -- I preach it everywhere I go.

I am sick to death of people pronouncing that flying is "unaffordable."
That's just a cop-out used by failing businesses to explain why they don't
have any customers.

Compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap -- period. If
you can afford a new car -- and tens of millions can -- you can easily
afford to fly.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
Compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap -- period. If
you can afford a new car -- and tens of millions can -- you can easily
afford to fly.

I don't think you can really describe it as "cheap". If you rent, and
pinch your pennies, it can be affordable, but not "cheap". Not everyone
lives in Iowa.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

Compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap -- period.
If
you can afford a new car -- and tens of millions can -- you can easily
afford to fly.

I don't think you can really describe it as "cheap". If you rent, and
pinch your pennies, it can be affordable, but not "cheap". Not everyone
lives in Iowa.

I said "compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap" -- which
is a whole different thing than saying "flying is cheap."

Everything is relative. Compared to golfing in Scotland, or owning a 42
foot yacht, flying is DIRT cheap. Compared to bowling, it's pretty spendy.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article TLrtc.8088$n_6.4236@attbi_s53, Jay Honeck wrote:
Compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap -- period.
If
you can afford a new car -- and tens of millions can -- you can easily
afford to fly.

I don't think you can really describe it as "cheap". If you rent, and
pinch your pennies, it can be affordable, but not "cheap". Not everyone
lives in Iowa.

I said "compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap" -- which
is a whole different thing than saying "flying is cheap."

Everything is relative. Compared to golfing in Scotland, or owning a 42
foot yacht, flying is DIRT cheap. Compared to bowling, it's pretty spendy.

Compared to many recreational activities, flying is expensive.
Everything is relative. Compared to golfing on my computer (Tiger Woods
2004), playing soccer with friends, watching TV, flying is INCREDIBLY
expensive. Okay, never mind me! Point made by the original poster - if
you can afford a new car, and indeed tens of millions can, you can
easily afford to fly and that's the truth!

On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:17:53 GMT, Mark McNally
wrote:

Point made by the original poster - if
you can afford a new car, and indeed tens of millions can, you can
easily afford to fly and that's the truth!

I can afford to fly, barely. I really can't afford to go anywhere
using the rental so I'm limited to just wafting around the local
countryside. Fun, but limiting.

I'll have to wait till I get my homebuilt finished and the time flown
off to be able to afford to go somewhere without having to rob a bank
to pay for it.

I can't imagine how much that Polish guy paid for the rental 172 he
flew across the US and back.

Corky Scott

I can afford to fly, barely. I really can't afford to go anywhere
using the rental so I'm limited to just wafting around the local
countryside. Fun, but limiting.

Yeah, it's a funny thing about flying. Renting is sooo expensive "per trip"
that you always think twice before going anywhere.

*Buying*, on the other hand, is sooo expensive up-front -- way more
expensive then renting -- but then you tend to forget all about it after the
initial pain. Because of this financial amnesia, you fly a heckuva lot
more, simply because the "per-trip" cost is so low -- really just the cost
of gas.

Either way you cut it, if you took the amount you'd put into buying a new
2004 Toyota, you could buy a really nice little Cessna 150 and fly the pants
off of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article , Viperdoc wrote:
I would argue the point that an individual who flies VFR in IMC is a
skillful pilot. Most pilots would suggest that flying in IMC and being lost
in a thunderstorm do not demonstrate good judgment or skill.

Skill and judgement are different things. I've known pilots with a high
level of physical skill sometimes display an appalling lack of good
judgement.

If you fly often enough, sometime you (the generic you, as in y'all in
the newsgroup, not the original poster) may have a serious lapse of
judgement which you ask yourself sometime after the fact, "Why did I do
THAT!?" and which you'd be critical of someone else if you'd see them do
it. Sometimes we do have sudden losses of judgement.

It's common practise at many airports to be reading through something
like NTSB Reporter, or a flying mag with some coverage of aviation
accidents with other pilots, and all be commenting how "We'd never do
THAT". Then some months/years later do precisely that. I know pilots who
generally always show good jugement and skill once load a plane aft of
the CofG envelope and have a bloody good scare from it. I know pilots
who otherwise show good judgement to paint themselves into a corner with
the weather. I know pilots who otherwise show good judgement
accidentally run a fuel tank dry because they neglected a normal
downwind check. You can't just think "I normally display good judgement,
therefore I'll never be in the NTSB reports because of X", because one
day your human fallibility will get you. You have to ALWAYS be on your
guard for your *own* judgement failings because eventually, you'll make
a stupid/bad judgement call. Every pilot I know who has 1000 hours or
more has made at least one self-inflicted bad-judgement error. Most have
lived to tell the tale with no bent metal - but before they made that
error, they'd never have believed it'd be them who made that dumb,
stupid mistake. Every airport is teeming with "I learned about flying
from that" stories that people have acquired from their own lack of
judgement one day, even if they are the person who normally displays
excellent airmanship.

None of us are immune from making stupid mistakes, even grossly stupid
ones that we though we'd never make because we are "better than that" -
most of the time we are, but sudden loss of judgement happens, and
occasionally you need that superior skill to get yourself out of a
stupid position you put yourself in in the first place.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Good for you, Jay! I get so tired of hearing folks whine about my airplanes
when they drive up in their $40,000 SUVs whose insurance is more each year
than our two taildraggers combined. I don't work and my husband doesn't make
a six figure salary, but we manage to fly about 300 hours a year together.

It's all about priorities. I have noticed, too, that some pilots will not
fly unless they are flying the newest, the best, or the fastest.
Consequently, these are airplanes few can afford. Let them stay on the
ground. I don't mind puttering over their heads ;-).

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:bXntc.7031$n_6.5671@attbi_s53...
Flying doesn't have to be outrageously expensive - there are many ways
to afford flying on even a modest income.

This is my gospel, Dylan -- I preach it everywhere I go.

I am sick to death of people pronouncing that flying is "unaffordable."
That's just a cop-out used by failing businesses to explain why they don't
have any customers.

Compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap -- period. If
you can afford a new car -- and tens of millions can -- you can easily
afford to fly.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"