Busted TFR, what to expect?

Matt Whiting writes:

Chris Colohan wrote:
Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but

going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
minutes.

Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)

I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and
check the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a
Citabria was so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic
inspection of the structure or some such? :-)

I admit I am new to this, and I could probably go faster with
experience. But I attribute most of this time to checking everything
that can be seen, touched, or smelled that I can get my hands, eyes,
or nose on. The plane I fly is kind of old and creaky -- and I am
paranoid enough to check everything that reasonably can be checked
without tools. Sometimes I find myself falling into habit, and doing
a check quickly -- when I notice this, I force myself to slow down and
do the check again purposefully. Sometimes I notice things on the
second time which my eyes skimmed over on the first check.

My instructor also provided a 10-page checklist for me to use on the
preflight. Perhaps this is more detailed than average? (My
instructor claims that the checklist started off much shorter, but
grew every time something went wrong over his many years of flying
Citabrias...)

One other data point -- about half of the time I fly the Citabria I
find a minor problem (not major enough to affect airworthiness, but
worth fixing: screw missing on a wing root fairing, underinflated
tire, slightly low on oil, etc.) This plane is based at a busy club,
and many other pilots fly the plane in between my flying sessions. I
take this as a good sign -- my preflight technique is noticing
problems which other pilots are missing, before they become more major
problems. (Alternative explanations: 1. all of these minor problem
occurred right before I want to go flying; 2. other pilots noticed
these problems but didn't think they were worth writing them down as
squawks.)

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

Chris Colohan wrote:

Matt Whiting writes:


Chris Colohan wrote:

Another data point -- I am not nearly as experienced as you are, but

going through every item on the Citabria checklist takes me 20-30
minutes.

Wow, you've got to get out of 1st gear. :-)

I could preflight my 182, wash the windshield, change the oil and
check the tire pressures in 10 minutes time. I didn't realize a
Citabria was so complex. Does the preflight require ultrasonic
inspection of the structure or some such? :-)


I admit I am new to this, and I could probably go faster with
experience. But I attribute most of this time to checking everything
that can be seen, touched, or smelled that I can get my hands, eyes,
or nose on. The plane I fly is kind of old and creaky -- and I am
paranoid enough to check everything that reasonably can be checked
without tools. Sometimes I find myself falling into habit, and doing
a check quickly -- when I notice this, I force myself to slow down and
do the check again purposefully. Sometimes I notice things on the
second time which my eyes skimmed over on the first check.

My instructor also provided a 10-page checklist for me to use on the
preflight. Perhaps this is more detailed than average? (My
instructor claims that the checklist started off much shorter, but
grew every time something went wrong over his many years of flying
Citabrias...)

A 10 page preflight checklist is simply ridiculous. All of the
checklists for my Skylane, including the emergency ones that I made up
myself since Cessna didn't provide much of any, were less than 10 pages.


Matt

well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell a
program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as full
weather its called Pilot My-cast

https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp

Dave Zera
Co-Chariman
Safety / Flight Line
AirVenture 2006

"Bob Fry" wrote in message
...
"JD" == John Doe writes:

JD I had my first experience with a VIP TFR last weekend. Bush
JD was in town and I had gotten an email from AOPA notifying me
JD of the TFR in my area.

Bush was in Sacto a few weeks ago and I too got the AOPA notification
by email. Because of that, and checking the extent of that TFR, I
decided not to risk it and simply didn't fly that weekend.

But for the TFR I violated, I didn't get a notice from AOPA. Why, I'm
not sure. And the local newspaper had nothing about Cheney's visit
until afterwards so I didn't know he was in town.

JD Luckily, I've learned to check NOTAMS prior to every flight,
JD and following the procedures, the TFR didn't delay me at all
JD in getting on my way.

I rarely check NOTAMS or get a briefing for local VFR flights, and
quite honestly I doubt I'll change my habits. The FAA should
recognize that using NOTAMs alone are not enough. Maybe they should
take email addresses and locations from pilots (kinda like AOPA) and
send notices when a TFR is going to pop up in a given area.

Maybe they could reserve a frequency just to broadcast important area
NOTAMs. Pilots would get in the habit of checking it before takeoff
and during flight. Maybe area NOTAMs could be added on to AWOS
broadcasts. Something?

David J. Zera wrote:
well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell a
program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as full
weather its called Pilot My-cast

https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp


Looks pretty good except it works for every phone known to man except the one I
JUST got two weeks ago. I'n stuck with it for two years, too.

Damn.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 00:59:47 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

David J. Zera wrote:
well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell a
program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as full
weather its called Pilot My-cast

https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp


Looks pretty good except it works for every phone known to man except the one I
JUST got two weeks ago. I'n stuck with it for two years, too.

It works with my phone, but I'd have to change providers to use it
with that phone which doesn't make sense.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Damn.
Roger

Nice idea, but doesn't work with my phone.

I still haven't got the letter from the FAA detailing my punishment,
but after talking to the FSDO a few times I know what to expect:

- 30 day license suspension for violating the TFR, NASA ASRS form
doesn't work to suspend penalty

- Another 15 days added by local FSDO for failing to get complete
information before flight; actually serving the penalty is waived by
ASRS

Other things I learned, most from AOPA's web site:

- When asked to return a phone call, whether the tower, ATC, or the
FAA, a pilot is under absolutely no legal requirement to do so.

- And in fact you're often better off not to call back. Even the FSDO
guy admitted that they lessen their add-on penalty if they're not sure
they have the right person. In other words, being stand-up and not
concealing anything simply makes you an easy target and a chump. I
would probably call back for a tower or class C controller, but
probably won't for anything else in the future.

- If you decide to call for a briefing before every flight, you can
ask for just NOTAMs and TFRs. However this may not protect you from
the add-on penalty for not getting complete info before flight.

- FSS briefers can and do fail to report vital information, most often
if it's out of their region. Two local pilots, after hearing about
me, related tales of neglected information (a safety TFR and a
malfunctioning VOR) that would be pretty important to flight safety.
They knew about these only by chance, and when they asked the FSS
briefer about them, the response they got was "Oh yea, thanks for
reminding me!" (TFR) and "Oh, does anybody use VORs anymore?" But at
least you'll be on record and your legal butt will be safe, if not
your physical butt.

More when I get the letter....sometime.

Mortimer,

The list that Digital cyclone keeps on supported phone is really out of
date. depending on your carrier access the download pages on the phone's
web. My sprint phone (mm9000) is not listed on the supported pages BUT it is
supported and downloadable from Sprint's site. I believe that you will find
that you can download and use it!

Dave Zera
Co-Chariman
Safety / Flight line
AirVenture 2006
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
...
David J. Zera wrote:
well.....just food for thought all of the major cell phone carriers sell
a
program that can be downloaded to many phones that has TFR's as well as
full
weather its called Pilot My-cast

https://secure.my-cast.com/pilot.jsp


Looks pretty good except it works for every phone known to man except the
one I JUST got two weeks ago. I'n stuck with it for two years, too.

Damn.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Bob Fry wrote:
- FSS briefers can and do fail to report vital information, most often
if it's out of their region. Two local pilots, after hearing about
me, related tales of neglected information (a safety TFR and a
malfunctioning VOR) that would be pretty important to flight safety.
They knew about these only by chance, and when they asked the FSS
briefer about them, the response they got was "Oh yea, thanks for
reminding me!" (TFR) and "Oh, does anybody use VORs anymore?" But at
least you'll be on record and your legal butt will be safe, if not
your physical butt.

I discovered a wonderful example of that recently. R-5206 is about 15
miles from White Plains (HPN). It's active mostly in July and August, but
"O/T by NOTAM", and it does indeed get activated from time to time year
round. You would think calling FSS and asking for a "notams in a 25 mile
radius around HPN" would get you the information that R-5206 was hot,
right? WRONG!

It turns out, that R-5206's notams are filed under IGN (Kingston VOR), and
IGN is more than 25 miles from HPN, so the notam doesn't show up in the
25-mile briefing. What idiocy!

I've been flying in the area for 10 years and only found this out a couple
of months ago, pretty much by accident. I asked a student of mine to give
me the highlights of his briefing. I knew 5206 was hot because I saw the
notam (I typically ask duats for a 50-mile radius, and IGN falls within
that). He gave me a complete weather rundown, but didn't mention the
notam. I asked him about 5206, and he said the briefer didn't say anything
about it.

At this point, I started to suspect he hadn't really gotten a briefing, so
I made him get another one, and put it on speaker while I listened. He
did, and sure enough, the briefer said nothing about 5206. Before he hung
up, I asked specifically about 5206 and got the notam telling us it was
hot. It wasn't until sometime later that I put two and two together and
figured out the IGN bit.