Glider Crash - Minden?

To clarify the points raised by Rory O’ Conor and John
Smith

Gliders in the UK are not generally allowed to fly
in IFR only airspace, such as Class A and airways.
However some gliding clubs who are situated in or
close to Class A or Class D airspace (e.g. Portmoak
and Dunstable) have local letters of agreements that
allow some access to controlled airspace by their members
under defined conditions. These agreements do not apply
to glider pilots from other clubs who happen to be
transiting the area and can be withdrawn at any time,
so they are not exactly rights but are better than
nothing. There are also some wave soaring boxes that
can be opened by an advance telephone call and then
a radio request in flight.

When I first started flying X-country, you were allowed
to cross Airways, provided you crossed them approximately
at right angles in VMC and kept a good lookout. This
right was removed sometime in the 1990’s when a wave
soaring glider got a bit too close to an airliner somewhere
over South Wales.

Derek Copeland


At 16:48 06 September 2006, John Smith wrote:
Pity that Derek does not appear to have read the references
provided by
Rory. The items on the SGU website relate to the Scottish
TMA around
Edinburgh and a local agreement between the SGU and
NATS Edinburgh that
permits easier access to the South though defined routes,
an agreement
between the BGA, SGU and Scottish Air Traffic relating
to crossing the
airwayS viz P600 andB226 subject to prior notification
and radio calls, and
an agreement between the BGA, SGU and the Scottish
Control centre that
permits gliders from Portmoak access to the Northern
part of the Scottish
TMA and southern part of P600 at weekends. No mention
of the Scottish Wave
boxes in any of these.

At 14:30 07 September 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
'kirk.stant' wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting
out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw
a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you
have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested,
possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the
same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume
of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll
be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something
what would
work if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Kirk,

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

In either case, if you were really on a collision course
before, that will get you out of the way.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach. If the ridge, it's almost certainly another
glider, so follow the rule about whoever can turn right
away from the ridge does that. If it turns out that
the other guy has the burden of turning, but he doesn't
see you, it seems to me that it's always possible to
descend a few feet, wings level, which is enough to
avoid the collision. If that isn't possible, you're
flying too damn close to the ridge.

On final, the interfering traffic is probably an airplane
taking off, maybe dive to duck under him, then use
the speed to get to a safe landing after the offending
plane passes over. On tow, radio call to warn the
tow pilot, release, treat it like a rope break. That's
the toughest one.

Ed

At 14:30 07 September 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
'kirk.stant' wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting
out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw
a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you
have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested,
possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the
same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume
of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll
be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something
what would
work if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Kirk,

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

In either case, if you were really on a collision course
before, that will get you out of the way.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach. If the ridge, it's almost certainly another
glider, so follow the rule about whoever can turn right
away from the ridge does that. If it turns out that
the other guy has the burden of turning, but he doesn't
see you, it seems to me that it's always possible to
descend a few feet, wings level, which is enough to
avoid the collision. If that isn't possible, you're
flying too damn close to the ridge.

On final, the interfering traffic is probably an airplane
taking off, maybe dive to duck under him, then use
the speed to get to a safe landing after the offending
plane passes over. On tow, radio call to warn the
tow pilot, release, treat it like a rope break. That's
the toughest one.

Ed

If you are on a collision course, how are you going to know whether going
down is the right solution? He might be 50 ft below you, and you are going
to dive right into him. Or he might also decide to descend.

This brings to mind an interesting suggestion that I was taught when I got
my power license about avoiding collisions with birds: Always climb, as the
birds will tend to dive.

Mike Schumann

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"kirk.stant" wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested, possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something what would work
if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 14:30 07 September 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
'kirk.stant' wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting
out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw
a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you
have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested,
possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the
same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume
of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll
be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something
what would
work if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |


Kirk,

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

In either case, if you were really on a collision course
before, that will get you out of the way.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach. If the ridge, it's almost certainly another
glider, so follow the rule about whoever can turn right
away from the ridge does that. If it turns out that
the other guy has the burden of turning, but he doesn't
see you, it seems to me that it's always possible to
descend a few feet, wings level, which is enough to
avoid the collision. If that isn't possible, you're
flying too damn close to the ridge.

On final, the interfering traffic is probably an airplane
taking off, maybe dive to duck under him, then use
the speed to get to a safe landing after the offending
plane passes over. On tow, radio call to warn the
tow pilot, release, treat it like a rope break. That's
the toughest one.

Ed

Mike Schumann wrote:
If you are on a collision course, how are you going to know whether going
down is the right solution? He might be 50 ft below you, and you are going
to dive right into him. Or he might also decide to descend.

If you need to get out from in front while thermalling, you'll need some
more airspeed to do so and that means lowering the nose to accelerate
while, hopefully, turning to aim off to one side of him.

The opposition has first to see you in order to decide to descend. If we
assign equal probabilities to him climbing, turning or diving then
anything you do to move away from his current course has a 75% chance of
being right.

Now lets be generous and give him a 50% chance of seeing you.
Probabilities multiply when they are combined, so that gives you an 87%
chance of being right.

This brings to mind an interesting suggestion that I was taught when I got
my power license about avoiding collisions with birds: Always climb, as the
birds will tend to dive.

That's only useful if you have an engine or airspeed. If you're
thermalling and try that you'll end up descending about 2 seconds later
and, if the opposition saw you pull up, he'll be down there waiting for
you. Besides, if he read the same book you're quoting he'll be more
likely to pull up than to dive.

In any case, you didn't say what you'd do, so I'll ask again. What would
you do that's better than diving out of the way?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Edward Winchester wrote:

I agree with Martin, but for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

I like that! Must add it to my mental store and/or try it with plenty
of height and an empty sky. I've had a very similar maneuver demoed in a
Puchacz but don't know what my Libelle would do.

If you're cruising fast between thermals, it may work
better to put the stick in your lap, which would zoom
you at least a couple hundred feet. (don't ask me
how I know this.)

That makes sense.

Regarding Martin's case of being too low, that would
imply that you're on the ridge, on tow, or on final
approach.

I was thinking more of being nearer circuit height, maybe working on a
low save, but anyway the sort of situation were a loss of a few hundred
feet would be at best put you in a situation you wouldn't choose to be
in: if you can no longer reach a sensible landing area you may not be
all that much better off despite having avoided the collision.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Mike Schumann wrote:
If you are on a collision course, how are you going to know whether going
down is the right solution? He might be 50 ft below you, and you are going
to dive right into him. Or he might also decide to descend.

Or you could just sit there with your eyes closed and do nothing, if
you have trouble making decisions. If you don't have the eye to know
what is the best move fairly quickly, almost instinctively, either
aviation is not for you, or else you need more hours in the air with
an experienced PIC. Get into the ball sports where an appreciation for
spatial relationships, hand-eye coordination, relative motion on all
planes, and accelerations is programmed into your brain -- though this
is best begun at a very early age.

---

Going down is good if you have the space; turning can work -- I have
most often done both; going up is a very limited option in a glider so
it's here that your timing and judgment are most critical.

If I had to suggest a rule of thumb, it would be to maneuver to a
position behind and below the traffic, and do not delay. The most
natural tendency seems to be to go up as an initial fright response,
so I would anticipate the other pilot will do that, if anything. By
the time you have identified the threat as necessitating an avoidance
reaction and begun your maneuver, his opportunity to make the
situation either better or worse has probably already been
considerably reduced. Of course there is always somebody out there who
is both slow to react and also tends to make exactly the wrong move.
But, if you are doing your part in the see-and-avoid dance you should
already have solved both his problem and yours. Early awareness goes a
long way toward simplifying the decision and enhancing your execution.


This brings to mind an interesting suggestion that I was taught when I got
my power license about avoiding collisions with birds: Always climb, as the
birds will tend to dive.

The birds don't always dive, I promise you. If they are as good at
see-and-avoid as they should be, they frequently do so. Some of them
aren't any better than some of us, however, when it comes to traffic
awareness. The lone hunters tend to be the sharpest, not surprisingly.
The flockers, not so much.


Jack

Edward Winchester wrote, re traffic avoidance:

...for the thermalling case,
I'd amend that to put the top rudder on the floor and
the stick in the opposite corner, at least at first.
You'll lose hundreds of feet in 10 seconds, and not
gain a ridiculous amount of airspeed.

The quickest directional change comes from your elevator. With the
ailerons and rudder, put the vertical axis of your ship on the same
plane as the place you want to be, and pull, or push, the nose to that
point with the stick. The wings are designed to produce positive-g
lift -- they do it very well -- use them that way. If negative-g is
all you have time for, then push. You'll create separation with
traffic a lot faster this way than you will by entering an
uncoordinated maneuver.

If a slip entry is what you are describing, you are asking the ship to
enter a gravity-powered trajectory in which you are abdicating most of
your directional control, and committing yourself to a relatively slow
change of direction, when in fact a quicker change is what you need.
Why take "ten seconds" to accomplish what can be done in a small
portion of that time with a coordinated maneuver using the momentum of
the ship to take you where you want to go?

Soaring is all about energy management, so use yours to get you to a
safe place, rather than waiting for gravity, or grace, to save you.


Jack

My point is not to try to avoid the collision, but show how big of a problem
it is when you get too close to some fast iron. It really gets to be
problematic to figure out what the best evasive maneuver is when you have a
very high closure rate.

The best solution is to try to avoid getting into this situation in the 1st
place. Having an operational transponder would be a good way to start.

Mike Schumann

"588" wrote in message
t...
Mike Schumann wrote:
If you are on a collision course, how are you going to know whether going
down is the right solution? He might be 50 ft below you, and you are
going to dive right into him. Or he might also decide to descend.

Or you could just sit there with your eyes closed and do nothing, if you
have trouble making decisions. If you don't have the eye to know what is
the best move fairly quickly, almost instinctively, either aviation is not
for you, or else you need more hours in the air with an experienced PIC.
Get into the ball sports where an appreciation for spatial relationships,
hand-eye coordination, relative motion on all planes, and accelerations is
programmed into your brain -- though this is best begun at a very early
age.

---

Going down is good if you have the space; turning can work -- I have most
often done both; going up is a very limited option in a glider so it's
here that your timing and judgment are most critical.

If I had to suggest a rule of thumb, it would be to maneuver to a position
behind and below the traffic, and do not delay. The most natural tendency
seems to be to go up as an initial fright response, so I would anticipate
the other pilot will do that, if anything. By the time you have identified
the threat as necessitating an avoidance reaction and begun your maneuver,
his opportunity to make the situation either better or worse has probably
already been considerably reduced. Of course there is always somebody out
there who is both slow to react and also tends to make exactly the wrong
move. But, if you are doing your part in the see-and-avoid dance you
should already have solved both his problem and yours. Early awareness
goes a long way toward simplifying the decision and enhancing your
execution.


This brings to mind an interesting suggestion that I was taught when I
got my power license about avoiding collisions with birds: Always climb,
as the birds will tend to dive.

The birds don't always dive, I promise you. If they are as good at
see-and-avoid as they should be, they frequently do so. Some of them
aren't any better than some of us, however, when it comes to traffic
awareness. The lone hunters tend to be the sharpest, not surprisingly. The
flockers, not so much.


Jack