GW Bu$h's Torture Chambers and Rape rooms ...!

On 5 May 2004 03:29:10 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Yes. That is the doctrine of command responsibility. Mere ignorance
of those crimes is not a defense. In Yama****a's case it was proven
that capital crimes were openly commotted within 200 yards of his
office showing that even if he was ignorant of those crimes, his
ignorance was willful at best. ALthough, unlike Remsfeld and Bush,
Yama****o did prove that he gave orders intended to prevent those
crimes it is also clear that he did not enforce those orders in
any effective way.

Yama****a could not enforce his orders. They were
countermanded by "high officials" ( i.e., people around the emperor
and likely even the emperor himself ) who had their own chains of
command separate from his.

As numerous historians have pointed out, no middle class
Japanese general is likely to win in such a situation. When
Yama****a could control the situation, he tried to limit atrocities.
E.g., IIRC he released 3K allied prisoners in his retreat, though
ordered to kill them all.

Not when you consider the factual evidence against Yama****a. His
defense was a sham. Note also that his conviction was uphelp
upon appeal to a Federal Court, demonstrating that trials conducted
outside of the US ARE subject to judicial review within the US.

With their own consent, Yama****a and other Japanese generals
were offered up as sacrifices by both the US and Japanese governments.
This was primarily to avoid looking too much into the real origins of
Japanese atrocities in a small group of plotters around the emperor
himself. This would have interfered with the occupation. To
this day, the Japanese view them as such sacrificial lambs, who
sacrificed their lives for Japan as much as any other soldier.

When it became clear that the war was lost, the Japanese had
prepared for this with an intricate plot involving such things as the
Kido diaries ( a major piece of evidence at the trials ) to deflect
responsibility.

The Australians ( whose soldiers had particularly suffered )
threatened to upset the scheme by calling for the trial of the emperor
himself. They were quickly brought into line. Interesting book
on all of this called "Japan's Imperial Conspiracy". The title
belies the book, BTW.

Not true. E.g., some German sabateurs were executed in WW2.

Yes it is true. See the 1907 Hague Conventions. THey are online.

International conventions are basically treaties which
countries sign on to. They are only enforceable in wartime by
common consent, E.g. "We won't torture your soldiers if you don't
torture ours." A country may announce it is will to abide by such
conventions, even if they don't sign them. In fact, the US did this
for long periods and may still do so, IIRC.

PHP

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message . com...
talk.politics.guns removed from distribution as this thread should
never have been crossposted there in the first place.

"Yardpilot" wrote in message news:yEIkc.6651$Ik.592666@attbi_s53...
"Morton Davis" wrote in message
news:KACkc.1001$Ia6.92253@attbi_s03...


Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the burned
bodies of our dead from bridges? There are none because we are not cheering.

If something like this happens, we crack down on the perpetrators. Few if any
people celebrate such things. It seems we worry more about people in other
countries than we do our own when it comes to abuse of authority.

Feel free to prove your assertion.

Here's proof of how the Bush Administration cracked down BEFOR photos
were published:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=518258

In Washington, an army official revealed that one US soldier
was convicted of murder for shooting a prisoner to death in
September 2003 at a detention centre in Iraq, and that another
prisoner was killed at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad
two months later by a private contractor working for the CIA.

The soldier - convicted by court martial - was thrown out
of the service but did not serve time in jail. The official
said that the soldier shot the prisoner after he had thrown
stones at him. The serviceman was found to have used excessive
force. No action was taken against the CIA contractor because
the military had no legal jurisdiction.

OTOH, Reuters reported that the soldier was convicted of murder for
killing the prisoner with a stone. It seems we need the text of the
actua DOD news release.

Would you care to post it for us?

Is there a DOD news release? I don't believe everything that is
written in a newspaper to be "proof" of anything. A court martial
convicted someone of MURDER without serving time? I'd like to see
what Reuters is calling a murder conviction. Using excessive force
under certain circumstances would be unlawful, but that would not
always equate to "murder" in the legal sense. This guy may have been
convicted for a crime that caused a death, i.e. manslaulter,
negligence, etc. But I'd bet it was inaccurate to express or imply a
conviction for the crime of "murder" resulted in a discharge only.

"Yardpilot" wrote in message news:io5mc.27189$IG1.1154544@attbi_s04...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

BTW, are you aware of who it was
that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
The wheels were going in circles befor that.

No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a report
from a
soldier.

Free free to prove your assertion.

This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers. Look up the
name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." [A fellow Marylander, FF] He set the ball rolling on this.

Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.

--

FF

Peter H Proctor wrote in message . ..
On 4 May 2004 12:54:45 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Peter H Proctor

With the exception of local militia forces rushing to the defense of
their country, any belligerent not in uniform is a "spy" and can be
legally executed in wartime. Psychological stress is sure a lot
less than this..

Certain actions, such as torture and summary execution are crimes
without regard to the choice of victim.

Arguable. But what if "psychological stress" can save innocent
lives ?

No decent person denies this.

Say (e.g) you could have prevented 9/11 by using "psychological
methods" . I know what I woudl have done....

Since it's a hypothetical, more on that later if I find the time.


Summary execution of suspected spies has been outlawed since at
^^^^^^^
least the 1907 Hague Conventions, which you can find online.

The US and the UK were executing "spies" in WW2. Don't recall any
recent cases, but as far as I know, the provision is still there.
BTW, early conventions only appled to "civilized combatants", i.e,
Europeans and maybe the Japanese. "Savage tribes" were free game.


Evidently you are unclear on the concept of summary execution.
'Summary execution' is execution without appropriate prior legal
process. Again, you can find the relevent prohibition in the
1907 Hague conventions online, why didn't you look?

Execution of spies, sabotuers, POWs and civilians are all allowed
under the Geneva conventions. But only after conviction by a
competent court or tribunal. That last is the part you were
neglected to consider. None of the detainees at Guantanamo
have been tried at all, therefore there is no basis within the
context of the 1949 Conventions to deny them POW status.

--

FF

talk.politics.guns removed form the distribution list per nettiquette.

"Morton Davis" wrote in message news:7%3mc.26860$IG1.1141540@attbi_s04...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...

I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.

Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.


I didn't deny torture is wrong,

I'm pleased that you have come around to our way of thinking.

****wit, I was reminding you of what REAL
torture is about for the ****wits who are jumping up and down, screaming
that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.


I haven't observed any people 'jumping up and down, screaming
that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.'

Please show them to us.

How sad it is that the best defense you can put forward is that
our President is not as bad as Saddam Hussein.

--

FF

I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
inapproriate to both.

I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
in the other groups.

--

FF

Pooched wrote in message . ..


sarcasm

DAMNIT, don't ruffle dubya's feathers!

He is da messiah! [You misplet 'mess']

sarcasm/

At least he makes no claim to be a messiah, though it sometimes
seems like he claims he consults with the Almighty on every
important decision. Perhaps that explains why he never admits
to making a mistake.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
inapproriate to both.

I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
in the other groups.

"fred" admits he got trounced.

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:io5mc.27189$IG1.1154544@attbi_s04...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...
"Yardpilot" wrote in message
news:ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

BTW, are you aware of who it was
that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
The wheels were going in circles befor that.

No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a
report
from a
soldier.

Free free to prove your assertion.

This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers. Look up
the
name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." He set the ball rolling on this.

Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.

I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like you have
been in every thread here.

On 5 May 2004 14:00:02 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Pooched wrote in message . ..


sarcasm

DAMNIT, don't ruffle dubya's feathers!

He is da messiah! [You misplet 'mess']

sarcasm/

At least he makes no claim to be a messiah, though it sometimes
seems like he claims he consults with the Almighty on every
important decision. Perhaps that explains why he never admits
to making a mistake.

Consulting with God on important decisions usually means you
frequently admit to mistakes.

And, ya, Dubya doesn't claim to be the messiah. But most of his
supporters sure treat him like one.