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#131
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New Butterfly Vario
Sure the rule was created way back, so ?
IFF the start cylinder top is set above cloudbase, what do you think happens ? Hope that makes sense ! |
#132
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 13, 5:22*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Here's the catch though: *You'd still be illegal to fly because you use LK8000 or XCSoar. *Since they have AH functions that you cannot "safety-wire" in the off position, you can't use them. Nav devices without gyros probably are never going to constitute instruments that "permit flight without reference to ground". GPS plus ipaq or similar probably okay no matter what software. I don't speak for the RC, but I think this is a pretty defensible position. I'm planning on using XCSoar in comps in April & May. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#133
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New Butterfly Vario
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 17:01:01 -0800, Mike wrote:
On Feb 13, 3:22Â*pm, "noel.wade" wrote: Brad - Here's the catch though: Â*You'd still be illegal to fly because you use LK8000 or XCSoar. Â*Since they have AH functions that you cannot "safety-wire" in the off position, you can't use them. Â*Sorry! No contest-flying for you! Â*Not until you buy a dedicated flight computer for a couple-thousand-dollars! Â*Oh, and if you buy a nice cell-phone, you cannot fly with it. Â*Sorry, gotta hike to a farmer's house in the middle of nowhere to make a call and get retrieved! How do these things improve safety or help increase participation? They don't - THAT'S the insanity of this rule. Â*Its much, much larger than the half-dozen idiots in the country who'd kill themselves trying to cloud-fly simply because they have an AH in the cockpit. The sport and its rule-makers _must_ adjust to modern realities or the sport is going to continue to die. Â*In some ways they're doing great things; but in others they're falling flat on their face. Â*Adjusting to modern society _doesn't_ mean you have to support million-dollar thermal-detectors; but it _does_ mean the application of common- sense!! Â*Skew the rules towards the greater common good; _don't_ skew the rules and everyone's equipment out of fear that a teeny fraction of individuals will cheat. Anyone willing to cheat to cloud-fly is also willing to be a big dick at their next contest and protest everyone who flies with a smart- phone. Â*I'd LOVE to see the fallout from *that* event! --Noel XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that. Same comment from me re LK8000. From a cloud flying POV it does nothing that's not duplicated by a compass. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#134
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New Butterfly Vario
On 2/13/2012 4:51 PM, noel.wade wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:08 pm, Dave wrote: I am just passing along observations. Remember, the rule was created (at least) partly to reduce the temptation... FWIW, Best Regards, Dave Sorry, I realize I'm breaking my word about shutting up - but was that rule created *before* the new start-cylinder rules that require you to be below start cylinder height for 2 minutes prior to going through the gate? Because with the newer start-cylinder rules in place, a lot of these concerns go away. The rule against cloud-flying instruments has been in force for decades. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) |
#135
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 13, 3:45*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:17*pm, T8 wrote: Can anyone name a single pilot who has an accident, or even a bad scare due to entering IMC in competition? -Evan Ludeman / T8 Yes, Evan, I had a bad scare in a contest environment (Elmira 2009 Sports Class Nationals) I found myself in heavy down pour (IMC). I am talking about the kind of down pour that makes you stop on the highway because you don't see anything. I was not able to see anything neither ahead nor down for what seemed like eternity. In reality the IMC lasted 20 seconds or maybe a bit more before I barely saw the ground. For all that time I did not touch controls and that saved the day. After I started seeing bits and pieces of the ground I turned away from the cloud. If I had a gyro I would have executed 180 deg right away and I would have avoided much of the stress. Saying all that, it was my bad judgement that got me there, although I could swear the cloud did not look bad up to the moment I got poured on. I learned from that experience. I am still worried more about people flying in clouds than me entering IMC again. I am thinking that if someone is going to fly in clouds they better do it with the right equipment rather than a cell phone gyro especially if I am under the cloud they are flying in. I am slowly thinking that maybe allowing gyros is not that bad of an idea. I can't make up my mind on which side of this argument I am on. Andrzej I often have airplane pilot friends look into the cockpit of a glider and demand to know, "Where is the artificial horizon? I tell them, "we use the big one in the sky". If they look puzzled, I say, "Well, it's blue up there and brown down here and there's this line in between we call the horizon..... |
#136
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New Butterfly Vario
Mike wrote:
XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that. Yes: http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...nderer.cpp#n35 The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment says why. (Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits on technology used by XCSoar) This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a real AHRS. The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer. Max |
#137
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 14, 2:08*am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote: XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that. Yes: *http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo.... The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits on technology used by XCSoar) This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer. Max I want to point out that the rule against artificial horizons et al is not just a USA rule. From the FAI Sporting Code which governs most non- US contests (and the upcoming WGC in Uvalde): "No instruments permitting pilots to fly without visual reference to the ground may be carried on board, even if made unserviceable." As Eric pointed out, this rule has been in force for decades and it did not just appear at random. It was found over time that it was more of a benefit to safety than a detriment. Make your own conclusion about the willingness of competitors to cloud-fly. QT |
#138
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New Butterfly Vario
On 14 helmi, 09:08, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote: XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that. Yes: *http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo.... The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits on technology used by XCSoar) This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer. Max GPS derived "artificial horizon" is not enough to keep your wings level when IMC. GPS system is very good for checking your bearing when flying straight and level, better than compass, but to control glider in choppy IMC requires either gyro (T&B or horizon) or AHRS system. I do cloudflying with my glider all the time, and believe me it's something you don't wan't to try out without proper training and instruments. It's a lot of fun, if sometimes a bit too exciting, BTW. I'm actually one of those who will get Butterfly vario because of the AH feature. I believe that cloud flying in contests was last tried at Vrsac WGC in 1972. It was very bad idea then, as it's now. There was two pilots who parachuted to safety after IMC collision. |
#139
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New Butterfly Vario
I often have airplane pilot friends look into the cockpit of a glider and demand to know, "Where is the artificial horizon? I tell them, "we use the big one in the sky". If they look puzzled, I say, "Well, it's blue up there and brown down here and there's this line in between we call the horizon..... LOL! A friend did a demo ride for a heavy iron driver. He asked "where's the flight director?". The response was "behind my eyes". Tony |
#140
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New Butterfly Vario
On Feb 14, 12:08*am, Max Kellermann wrote:
Mike wrote: XCSoar has an artificial horizon? I did not know that. Yes: *http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xc...enderer/Horizo.... The code has been there for many years, but is disabled, the comment says why. *(Not my opinion/decision, I would not put artificial limits on technology used by XCSoar) This code will be reinstated when Johnny (and the rest of the OpenVario project) finishes his new vario design, which includes a real AHRS. *The OpenVario project started long before Butterfly announced their vario, but since it's a spare time project of a few soaring geeks, it takes a bit longer. Max Is this also the source of the faux AH found in L8000? |
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