"Out of fuel, out of hope: 'Help, I'm in the water'"

Dylan Smith wrote:

If it was dead calm, yes - but when your eyes are perhaps 4 inches above
the water in the trough of a 3-foot wave, and perhaps a couple of inches
below the water at the crest of the 3 foot wave, and the city lights are
6 miles away, there's a good chance you'll never even see them.

How about the reflection of the city lights off the bases of the clouds?

--
Peter


















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"Morgans" wrote in message
...

If the water of the lake was all indeed at 32 degrees, it would all be a
giant ice cube. If it were all at 32.1 degrees, it would all be liquid.

Sorry, but wrong.

You seem to be basing your argument on "the freezing point of water is 32",
and assuming that this means that any H2O at 32 will be solid "frozen".

However, it is equally true that "the melting point of water is 32", which
means that when solid water gets to 32 degrees, it melts (at that temp.)
and becomes water (at that temp.)

But wait... This means that I'm trying to say that water can be both
solid *and* liquid at 32 F? Yes, definitely. It's a trick chemists use
all the time, as a mixture of ice and water will maintain a constant
temp. (of 32, both the ice and the water) until all of the ice melts.

Let me explain this way.

You have a body of water at 32.2 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to WATER at 32.1 F.

You have a body of water at 32.1 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to WATER at 32.0 F.

You have a body of water at 32.0 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to ICE at 32.0 F. The heat lost to change a substance
from liquid at the freezing point to solid AT THE SAME TEMP
is called the "latent heat of fusion". But the point is that during
the change of state, the temperature does not change. The temperature
remains the same.

That is to say, once water reaches the freezing point, it doesn't
"instantly" change to ice. More heat is needed to be released
until it to solidify, and the latent heat of fusion is *much* more
than the heat needed to be lost to reduce temp.

The wave action has nothing to do with it.

Actually, wave action is kinetic energy. And so a body of
water with wave action will contain more energy than a
stagnant body of water, and so more energy will be needed
to be lost for it to freeze.

Jim in NC

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot
ca

Keep thy airspeed up, lest the earth come from below
and smite thee. — William Kershner
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...

If it was dead calm, yes - but when your eyes are perhaps 4 inches above
the water in the trough of a 3-foot wave, and perhaps a couple of inches
below the water at the crest of the 3 foot wave, and the city lights are
6 miles away, there's a good chance you'll never even see them.


How high would a light have to be to be visible from the lake surface? If
he swam towards shore he'd have been swimming toward an antenna farm, some
of those towers are over 1200 AGL. City lights also tend to illuminate the
bottoms of clouds and produce a glow from particulates in the air.

"Jeff Shirton" wrote in message
...

Sorry, but wrong.

You seem to be basing your argument on "the freezing point of water is
32",
and assuming that this means that any H2O at 32 will be solid "frozen".

However, it is equally true that "the melting point of water is 32", which
means that when solid water gets to 32 degrees, it melts (at that temp.)
and becomes water (at that temp.)

But wait... This means that I'm trying to say that water can be both
solid *and* liquid at 32 F? Yes, definitely. It's a trick chemists use
all the time, as a mixture of ice and water will maintain a constant
temp. (of 32, both the ice and the water) until all of the ice melts.


You'll also find water vapor at 32F.



Let me explain this way.

You have a body of water at 32.2 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to WATER at 32.1 F.

You have a body of water at 32.1 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to WATER at 32.0 F.

You have a body of water at 32.0 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to ICE at 32.0 F. The heat lost to change a substance
from liquid at the freezing point to solid AT THE SAME TEMP
is called the "latent heat of fusion". But the point is that during
the change of state, the temperature does not change. The temperature
remains the same.

That is to say, once water reaches the freezing point, it doesn't
"instantly" change to ice. More heat is needed to be released
until it to solidify, and the latent heat of fusion is *much* more
than the heat needed to be lost to reduce temp.


Ahh, brings me back to my thermodynamics studies.

"Jeff Shirton" wrote in message
...

Um, you mean there's "humidity"? g

And of course, my entire explanation assumes standard pressure.
And pilots *should* know that pressure is variable, correct?


Correct.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:10:57 -0000, Dylan Smith
wrote in
::

The only person who ultimately directly cares for us when we are solo in
an aircraft is ourselves. No one else. You are the captain of your own
soul as well as your aircraft.
You are the only person looking after yourself in that situation;
remember that. If you expect some divine being to care for you, I think
you're just looking for a grid reference.

I couldn't agree more. Here are the words of a survivor of a seven
hour swim in 59 degree water after ditching:


http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/med...4/Survival.htm
Without a flight plan, without radio contact, and without a
flotation device, Maready started swimming west, using Orion's
Belt to guide her toward shore. The weight of her wet clothes felt
as if they were pulling her under. Deciding to swim to shore
rather than drown, Maready removed her shoes, her clothes, and
even her wris****ch, which she could feel creating drag against
the 59-degree-Atlantic current. It was 2200, and the tide was not
in her favor. Her two-mile swim to land now had tripled against
the outgoing tide. In the darkness, she barely saw her hands in
front of her face. Thoughts of South Carolina's coast being second
in the number of shark attacks only to Florida did not comfort
her, and hypothermia was beginning to attack her body.

"Gradually, my body began to shiver. As the shivers worsened, I
noticed my hands were becoming gnarled and stiff. I made myself
keep moving, forced myself to keep up the swimming movements, but,
even as I continued, I could feel my toes crossing, my feet
arching and cramping into grotesque, fixed positions. It was my
body, and what was happening to it terrified me."

Cathy Maready couldn't stop the thoughts of death from entering
her mind, but she refused to give up the will-to-live.

"I thought it might be nice if I spent a little bit of the time I
had left to say goodbye to my family and loved ones. I believe
most people in survival situations would tend to cherish these
times. For me, it was time well spent. As I was saying my
good-byes, the water around me began to warm. My whole world began
to seem warmer. It was invigorating just to think about my loved
ones. I gained new energy, and my arms began to move again, very
slowly, but still moving."

As Maready kept swimming, hallucinations of search boats, rescue
helicopters, and sea monsters started to replace the darkness and
silence of the night. She was exhausted but continued swimming,
with the hallucinations beckoning her to stop. She wanted to stop
and yell for help, but the mere thought of stopping made Maready
feel as if she would sink like a stone. She decided the next time
she would stop swimming was when someone pulled her out of the
water or when her feet touched the sand.

With what she describes as angels pulling her arms forward through
the water and a renewed faith in her heart, Maready eventually
reached shore, a grueling seven and a half hours after the crash.

"Finally, even as I mentally was preparing myself for death, I
felt it. My knees were hitting a sand bar. I knew what it was, but
I was too numb to stand. Almost ready to cry, knowing how close
the shore was, I was forced to swim around the sand bar, out into
deeper water, to reach dry land. Agonizingly, I kept going. My
faith was pushing me; it was pulling me, carrying me to shore. It
was daybreak before I made the beach. I still can hear the oyster
shells cracking under my weight. I still can see the blood flowing
from my cuts, but, at the time, I was too numb to feel a thing."

Maready was found staggering along the beach, suffering from shock
and severe hypothermia. She spent the next three days in intensive
care. When she recovered, specialists were called to review, in
amazement, her medical charts. Chemicals in her body had built up
so high from exertion they literally were off the scale. Three
days later, she was released from the hospital.



http://gosport.pensacolanewsjournal....0B5983A5.shtml
"There's just this will that we all have within us, we just go, we
just do what we've gotta do," Maready said with quiet conviction.

Maready said she kept swimming until she started feeling
disconnected from her body. "My head didn't feel like it was
attached anymore. It's a strange feeling, but I could actually
feel my body shutting down. I could feel myself dying."

That's when Maready decided she should start saying goodbye to
everybody. Suddenly her knee hit a sandbar. After swimming in the
cold water of the Atlantic Ocean for seven hours, Maready was too
weak to stand. Her ordeal was nearly over, but if she couldn't
pull herself out of the water, she would risk drowning.

Jeff Shirton wrote:

"Morgans" wrote in message
...


If the water of the lake was all indeed at 32 degrees, it would all be a
giant ice cube. If it were all at 32.1 degrees, it would all be liquid.


Sorry, but wrong.

You seem to be basing your argument on "the freezing point of water is 32",
and assuming that this means that any H2O at 32 will be solid "frozen".

However, it is equally true that "the melting point of water is 32", which
means that when solid water gets to 32 degrees, it melts (at that temp.)
and becomes water (at that temp.)

But wait... This means that I'm trying to say that water can be both
solid *and* liquid at 32 F? Yes, definitely. It's a trick chemists use
all the time, as a mixture of ice and water will maintain a constant
temp. (of 32, both the ice and the water) until all of the ice melts.

Let me explain this way.

You have a body of water at 32.2 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to WATER at 32.1 F.

You have a body of water at 32.1 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to WATER at 32.0 F.

You have a body of water at 32.0 F. If you remove sufficient heat,
it cools to ICE at 32.0 F. The heat lost to change a substance
from liquid at the freezing point to solid AT THE SAME TEMP
is called the "latent heat of fusion". But the point is that during
the change of state, the temperature does not change. The temperature
remains the same.

That is to say, once water reaches the freezing point, it doesn't
"instantly" change to ice. More heat is needed to be released
until it to solidify, and the latent heat of fusion is *much* more
than the heat needed to be lost to reduce temp.


The wave action has nothing to do with it.


Actually, wave action is kinetic energy. And so a body of
water with wave action will contain more energy than a
stagnant body of water, and so more energy will be needed
to be lost for it to freeze.

And, to top it all off, I believe that 32F is the freezing point of pure
water. Almost anything added to water can affect the freezing point.
Just how clean is Lake MI anyway? :-)


Matt

Morgans wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote


If the water had been 32 degrees F instead of 40 it would have been 8
degrees colder, but it still would have been liquid.


It is arguing nits, but I'll play the game you started.

If the water of the lake was all indeed at 32 degrees, it would all be a
giant ice cube. If it were all at 32.1 degrees, it would all be liquid.
The wave action has nothing to do with it.

Actually, if the water was at 32 degrees, it _could_ be a giant ice
cube, it _could_ be all liquid, or it could be any combination of solid
and liquid in between. The phase transition is not instantaneous - you
still have a lot of energy to remove from the water at 32 degrees in
order to change it to ice.

Rich Lemert

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message

Even if the lake hadn't been so cold, he would be pretty much stuffed. 3
foot waves don't sound a lot, but when you're swimming only your head is
out. At night he could have had absolutely no idea which direction he
should swim unless he could astronavigate (which I suspect he couldn't).
There would be more chances of swimming in the wrong direction instead
of the most direct route to the shore if there's nothing to guide you.
The waves would have completely blocked his view of the land most of the
time, especially as he'd probably go under each wave regardless of how
strong a swimmer he was.

It's not that bad. You go up and down with the waves. As long as there's
some lights on the shore and no fog, you can navigate. Been out in it
plenty of times.

moo

Dylan Smith wrote:
In article et,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

The lights of the city should be visible.


If it was dead calm, yes - but when your eyes are perhaps 4 inches above
the water in the trough of a 3-foot wave, and perhaps a couple of inches
below the water at the crest of the 3 foot wave, and the city lights are
6 miles away, there's a good chance you'll never even see them.

No, you'll get a glow known as "light pollution" from a city the size of
Milwaukee. The sky in that direction would be distinctly lighter.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.