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#151
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Your point doesn't hold. If during the winch launch failure exercise the
instructor has to take the controls and/or overrule the student's input, the student won't go solo and he will have this game played over and over again. If an instructor doesn't feel comfortable to train winch failure on a proper winch launch at *any* height, he shouldn't be instructing winch launches. -- Bert Willing ASW20 "TW" "Ian Johnston" a écrit dans le message de news: dzZo7CxomoOm-pn2-Pk4JoJw3pd71@localhost... On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:41:44 UTC, Stefan wrote: Ian Johnston wrote: the student/ to recover safely..." There are some places and heights where the decision about where to go after the Big Bang hs to be made very quickly, and right first time. And if the student gets it wrong Then the instructor gives him exactly two tenths of a second to do the right thing. Otherwise the instructor takes over and the student can try again at the next launch. And that is my point: a practice winch launch failure isn't like a real one, because ultimately you know that you won't be allowed to do anything really stupid. Ian |
#152
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Stan Hall presented his analysis of the Nimbus-4DB accident in Minden, NV, 1999. Stan's analysis is scary, to say the least. The article, Probing for the Smoking Gun, was reprinted in the Soaring Association of Canada's free flight, 2/04. Go to the link below. Click on free flight on the side bar. Go to free flight back issues - 2004 - issue 2. Down load the PDF file. http://www.sac.ca/ Bill Feldbaumer 09 |
#153
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Hi,
Ah, but do they have the confidence and ability to recover safely from a failed attempt to recover safely from an attempt at any stage? I believe they do or I would not want to get in the glider with any of the lot :-). I am not even ready to fly solo so who am I to judge, though? One interesting bit of information I gleaned is that some instructors keep a hand on the brake handle. Just in case a student makes the decision to land NOW and pops the brakes before making the aircraft fly properly. I am not aware of any problems or even accidents caused by this mode of training. I believe it is standard procedure in germany and not an invention by our instructors. Ciao, MM -- Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn. +49 228 624013. http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de "What did you expect to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the prairie!" Basil Fawlty |
#154
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Hi,
And that is my point: a practice winch launch failure isn't like a real one, because ultimately you know that you won't be allowed to do anything really stupid. That is true of every critical phase of flight while in training. I firmly believe that my instructor is going to save himself. There are situations where he can let mistakes evolve and the student face the consequences before fixing the problem and times where he can't. My instructors so far have let me try to fix my mistakes on my own wherever safely possible. I have cried for help a few times at the start BEFORE they did, though :-). Trust in the instructor has no effect on the reality of the failure. If the student takes right and prompt action he has proven he would have survived at this occasion and hopefully will react the same the next time. If he doesn't take the right action he can be sure there are many more such exercises in his future before he has any chance to try it without someone watching from the back seat. Also there is not much to be learned from NOT taking the right action. I am sure I could talk an instructor into simulating it at altitude but all I could find out is that there is no safe alternative to the procedure we train for. And possibly have some fun doing so, I admit. Ciao, MM PS.: I have read somewhere that flight instructors do not teach anyone how to fly. They just keep students alive while they learn on their own. This very accurately reflects my current experience. -- Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn. +49 228 624013. http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de "What did you expect to see out of a Torquay hotel bedroom window? Sydney Opera House perhaps? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? Herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the prairie!" Basil Fawlty |
#155
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If Stans analysis is right, and I can see no obvious
flaw, once the spiral dive/spin situation is met then the chances of a sucessful recovery are slim. The 4DT would not be unique in this. Perhaps a tail parachute is an essential item of equipment. Food for thought At 15:18 30 June 2005, Bill wrote: Stan Hall presented his analysis of the Nimbus-4DB accident in Minden, NV, 1999. Stan's analysis is scary, to say the least. The article, Probing for the Smoking Gun, was reprinted in the Soaring Association of Canada's free flight, 2/04. Go to the link below. Click on free flight on the side bar. Go to free flight back issues - 2004 - issue 2. Down load the PDF file. http://www.sac.ca/ Bill Feldbaumer 09 |
#156
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The article was very interesting. The idea of aileron
stiffness at high bending was thought-provoking. 'Abandoning ailerons for a more effective way of starting and stopping roll...' Perhaps a reference to full span spoilers for roll? 'the smoking gun was the aircraft's incredibly high performance.' This is consistent with, but not a proof of, the things I've written before about USA fatalities and L/D. Of course, this was however NOT a ridge flying accident. The article didn't mention the possibility that the other pilot may have popped the airbrakes/two pilots on the controls working at odds with each other. Of course there is absolutely no way to confirm or deny this. Lastly, I liked the article's end, and the idea of big bold red letters in the AFM. It also occered to me that some of the 'seconds to accelerate from stall speed to ...' and a lot of the ideas we have, and how we practice spins and spirals, is in STILL AIR. I generally don't go up in huge thermals/turbulence to practice spins, specifically so I don't exceed Va and gust loads and 1/3 deflection, etc. Does a spin turn into a spiral on it's own sometimes in turbulent air? Can AOAs be changed by turbulence alone, with no movement of controls? Oh, yes. Start throwing in severe turbulence (which we love, when it suits us) and I think we are closer to the 'naked edge of safety' than is obvious. The 2-32 accident in Hawaii was anectdotally in 'the toilet bowl' there in turbulent air, too. Shear 10/20/30 knots in a few seconds and 1/4 mile vertically or horizontally, and our still air analysis can't be done with a pristine slide-rule... At 17:12 30 June 2005, Don Johnstone wrote: If Stans analysis is right, and I can see no obvious flaw, once the spiral dive/spin situation is met then the chances of a sucessful recovery are slim. The 4DT would not be unique in this. Perhaps a tail parachute is an essential item of equipment. Food for thought At 15:18 30 June 2005, Bill wrote: Stan Hall presented his analysis of the Nimbus-4DB accident in Minden, NV, 1999. Stan's analysis is scary, to say the least. The article, Probing for the Smoking Gun, was reprinted in the Soaring Association of Canada's free flight, 2/04. Go to the link below. Click on free flight on the side bar. Go to free flight back issues - 2004 - issue 2. Down load the PDF file. http://www.sac.ca/ Bill Feldbaumer 09 Mark J. Boyd |
#157
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Deploy the "Other Spoilers"?
As a pilot of an 18m Ventus, I don't think my high-speed-dive-recovery problems are nearly as bad as those of a pilot of a 25m Nimbus, but nevertheless, these problems still feel uncomfortably close to home. In light of the well-discussed problems of deploying spoilers to control airspeed while trying to pull out of a steep dive, how about dropping the landing gear? On the Ventus, the main wheel swings forward as it is lowered, so I can imagine that at airspeeds approaching or exceeding Vne, it might not be possible to get the gear down-and-locked, but could even a partially deployed wheel and the open wheel bay add enough drag to correct an otherwise unrecoverable situation? Even more radically, how about jettisoning the canopy as a speed control measure? Or both? What do the experts on this newsgroup think? "Don Johnstone" wrote in message ... If Stans analysis is right, and I can see no obvious flaw, once the spiral dive/spin situation is met then the chances of a sucessful recovery are slim. The 4DT would not be unique in this. Perhaps a tail parachute is an essential item of equipment. Food for thought At 15:18 30 June 2005, Bill wrote: Stan Hall presented his analysis of the Nimbus-4DB accident in Minden, NV, 1999. Stan's analysis is scary, to say the least. The article, Probing for the Smoking Gun, was reprinted in the Soaring Association of Canada's free flight, 2/04. Go to the link below. Click on free flight on the side bar. Go to free flight back issues - 2004 - issue 2. Down load the PDF file. http://www.sac.ca/ Bill Feldbaumer 09 |
#158
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On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:04:56 UTC, Stefan
wrote: Ian Johnston wrote: And that is my point: a practice winch launch failure isn't like a real one, because ultimately you know that you won't be allowed to do anything really stupid. Your solution then for a more realistic training? None. It's as good as it gets. I'm just pointing out a necessary limitation. Ian |
#159
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There are certain points during an air tow, where there are also very small
margins for error. I also believe that winch launches have major risk advantages over air tow, particularly due to the elimination of the tow plane from the risk equation. Unfortunately, the field I fly out of is too short for winch launching to be practical. Mike Schumann "Stefan" wrote in message ... Bill Daniels wrote: I am fighting a lonely battle to convince my fellow USA pilots that winch launch is a perfectly normal way to launch gliders and not some invention of the devil. Just three things to consider: A which launch brings you to a certain altitude above the site. At some places, this gives you enough options to find a thermal, at other sites, it does not. A winch operation doesn't mix well with other traffic. It's doable, if everybody is willing. And, most important: If done correctly, a winch launch is safe. But there is an extremely small margin for errors. I love winch launches, but they are dead serious, literally. Stefan |
#160
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From what I have seen, I doubt that winch launches require more people than
air tow. One of the biggest problems we have with air tow is finding tow pilots who have the necessary hours in type to meet insurance requirements. I suspect that it would be much easier for your typical club to train and line up qualified winch operators than finding tow pilots. Mike Schumann "T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message ... Mike I Green wrote: It is too bad that so many influential pilots in the US have been knocking winch towing for such a long time. I've been flying since the early '70's and I've met a lot of glider pilots. I can't really think of any influential pilots who have been knocking winch launching. I know of many who've experienced it in Europe and think it would be a great way to decrease the cost of launching, but something always prevents it. That "something" may be lack of experience with winches in the U.S., lack of available winches or the cost of a good one, the difficulty of mixing with non-glider traffic, etc. As far as I can see, the successful U.S. winch operations seem to mostly be clubs who own/control their own field and have sufficient available labor to support winch launches or clubs on large open airports (former WWII airfields etc.) where there's plenty of space. Those favorable conditions just aren't that common. When you add concerns about startup expense and lack of familiarity of U.S. pilots, you can understand why winch launching is hard to get started here. T o d d P a t t i s t - "WH" Ventus C (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.) |
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