Guess Who's Planning to Shine Lasers on Pilots

In article flYWd.42705$r55.9673@attbi_s52, Jay Honeck wrote:
At best, your suggestion only works if you believe that our culture isn't
superior to that which predominated during the 6th Century, A.D. -- which is
about where the terrorists are today. If you think that "changing our ways"
to suit their barbaric view of the world will ensure peace, I suggest you
study Neville Chamberlain and what his government did with the Nazis, some
65 years ago.

It'd be nice if the IRA (Irish republican terrorists) and NORAID (their
north American funders) would change their ways too, but they insist
that labeling the IRA as 'terrorists' is British government propaganda.
Of course, blowing up a shopping mall in the middle of Manchester is not
terrorism by NORAID's definition.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man

It'd be nice if the IRA (Irish republican terrorists) and NORAID (their
north American funders) would change their ways too, but they insist
that labeling the IRA as 'terrorists' is British government propaganda.
Of course, blowing up a shopping mall in the middle of Manchester is not
terrorism by NORAID's definition.

Agreed. I wish our vaunted "Homeland Security" would pay more attention to
these types of groups.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
. ..
Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

WHY DO THEY HATE US?

I know I shouldn't take the bait, but:

Nor should I, but:

Yours is a meaningless question at this stage. The time to ask (or
answer) that question -- even if one found any validity in it -- has
long since past.

Here are the cold, hard facts: They hate us. They want to kill us.
They have killed us.

I see the cold, hard facts a little differently. They hate us (because of
how we relate to "them"). "They" want(ed) to kill us to get our attention.
"They" did so. "We" still don't get it.

Geez, do you suppose the reasons they DID give, which are not even close to
the one's you propose, well, they might have lied?

GAFC.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:hHZWd.41739$Ze3.32440@attbi_s51...
It'd be nice if the IRA (Irish republican terrorists) and NORAID (their
north American funders) would change their ways too, but they insist
that labeling the IRA as 'terrorists' is British government propaganda.
Of course, blowing up a shopping mall in the middle of Manchester is not
terrorism by NORAID's definition.

Agreed. I wish our vaunted "Homeland Security" would pay more attention
to these types of groups.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


They are more focused on preventing the last attack from being repeated than
in preventing the next attack. That and politics. Recently the Dept of
Homeland Security gave the Bonner County Sheriff a grant for almost $1
million for "anti-terrorism" training. They assaulted condemmed buildings
with machine guns (why that was so expensive, I don't know) Bonner County
is in North ID and the largest city, Sandpoint, has a population of less
than 7,000, making it a worthless target for terrorists. Just pork that our
children will have to pay for.

Mike
MU-2

Mike Rapoport wrote:

They [Homeland Security] are more focused on preventing the last attack from being repeated than
in preventing the next attack.

Have you been to many HSD meetings?

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 08:18:44 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
wrote in
::

[...]

Geez, do you suppose the reasons they DID give, which are not even close to
the one's you propose, ...

What reasons did they give?

Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

There are other cold hard facts to consider here. We aren't dealing
with "a murderer". We're dealing with entire cultures who just don't
happen to appreciate our way of going about things. So, to make sure
they don't try to kill the rest of our family, perhaps the best
approach is to go about things differently? If so, the best question
to ask is "why do they hate us?", as only an understanding and
addressing of that question can lead to peace.

Well, Neil, I hear you -- but I don't believe that our enemies really
care about how we "change our ways." It's clearly gone beyond all
that. (As if "we" had the ability to "change our ways" anyway --
whatever all that means.)

Well, they say they *do* care about many of the ways that we insert
ourselves in in their midst. The Palestinian issue; our general disrespect
for Islamic (not even radical) traditions, etc.

At best, your suggestion only works if you believe that our culture
isn't superior to that which predominated during the 6th Century,
A.D. -- which is about where the terrorists are today.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this, Jay. I can't help but think
that were the shoe to be on the other foot, we'd be acting in pretty much
the same way that "the terrorists" are, so it may be more an issue of
opportunity than culture. I think we're pretty much confused about what a
terrorist is, given that we assign that label on the basis of who we have
a beef with rather than what people do. But, that's another topic, I
guess.

If you think
that "changing our ways" to suit their barbaric view of the world
will ensure peace, I suggest you study Neville Chamberlain and what
his government did with the Nazis, some 65 years ago.

Make no mistake, I'm not advocating appeasement or sticking our heads in
the sand as was done then. But, I do think that part of getting our heads
*out* of the sand is to look at how "we" are perceived by "them". Know thy
enemy, and all. However, it seems that our government has an interest in
preventing "us" from knowing our enemy, and I can't see that as a good
thing.

Regards,

Neil

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:12:55 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote in
bxQWd.100646$tl3.67686@attbi_s02::

WHY DO THEY HATE US?

I know I shouldn't take the bait, but:

That's the same feeling I had when McNicoll initially dangled his
Churchill bait.

Yours is a meaningless question at this stage. The time to ask (or answer)
that question -- even if one found any validity in it -- has long since
past.

Bill Maher indicated that he offered his suggestion for the "WHY DO
THEY HATE US?" memorial during the time decisions were being formed
for what to erect on the site in place of the former WTC towers.

Here are the cold, hard facts: They hate us. They want to kill us. They
have killed us.

Um... It's even worse than that. "They" are schooling their progeny
in becoming human bombs. That coupled with the million annual illegal
emigrants entering through our southern border is a prescription for
terror beyond anything we have yet known in this country. So what
does the Bush administration do? It continues to fail to interdict
those illegal emigrants, and it launches a duplicitous attack against
Iraq!

Once they crossed that line, the validity of your question evaporated.

Let me see if my understanding of that statement is accurate. You are
saying, that once the terrorist acts were committed, it became invalid
to ask the underling reason for them?

There is no longer any reason to ponder -- or care -- *why* they hate us,
for all of our energies must now be focused entirely upon rooting out and
destroying them, wherever they live.

I find such a shortsighted attitude tantamount to head-in-sand
thinking at best. They can breed faster than you can destroy them.
If we are to ever again enjoy peace in this country, the cause must be
attacked, as well as the symptom.

If the true cause of the enmity toward the US could be discovered,
perhaps that information could be used to modify US behavior and thus
prevent additional Islamic terrorist acts against the US as well as
those of others whom our nation's actions may provoke in the future.

Here's an example. I was recently told that the US deposed the
constitutional monarchy government of Iran, and put the Shah in
power*. I don't know if that is true, but assuming it may be
accurate, how would you feel if baby Bush were deposed by foreign
government operatives, and a repressive dictatorship were to reign
over the US? Would it anger you to the point of taking retaliatory
action?

I, for one, prefer not to wait until they come to our house again.

So what are you doing instead of waiting? :-)

Actively taking steps to bring justice to those who perpetrated the
terrorist acts of September 11, 2001 seems appropriate. But from what
I've seen in the news media, that has nothing to do with waging war in
Iraq.

In addition to waiting for the next terrorist attack, we could make
the current administration aware of the fact that we feel squandering
our future generations' wealth in Iraq is abuse of power. But that
would require removing our collective heads from the sand and
examining the facts.

Bottom line: Wringing your hands wondering *why* a murderer has just killed
your family is probably not productive.

It's not productive UNLESS it provides information that can be used to
preempt subsequent attacks.

Making sure it doesn't happen to the rest of your family is...

Don't get me wrong. I believe bringing Osama to justice is the right
thing to do. Whether his cause is just or not, his means are a
barbaric abomination.

But squandering trillions of dollars of our childrens' earnings in
Iraq isn't going to stop terrorist attacks against the US. I see it
as an audacious, opportunistic manipulation by the GOP to further a
greedy agenda. It has further alienated world opinion toward the US
at a time when it already had fears of the world's ONLY superpower's
future intentions.

Perhaps if we can understand why "they" hate us, we can prevent our
government from provoking further terrorist acts.


Isn't the real reason we choose not to answer the question, "WHY DO
THEY HATE US?, because we fear what we may find upon self examination
was committed in our collective name?



* http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CI...n_CIAHits.html

On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:06:19 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote in flYWd.42705$r55.9673@attbi_s52::

There are other cold hard facts to consider here. We aren't dealing with
"a murderer". We're dealing with entire cultures who just don't happen to
appreciate our way of going about things. So, to make sure they don't try
to kill the rest of our family, perhaps the best approach is to go about
things differently? If so, the best question to ask is "why do they hate
us?", as only an understanding and addressing of that question can lead to
peace.

Well, Neil, I hear you -- but I don't believe that our enemies really care
about how we "change our ways."

What facts make you hold that belief?

It's clearly gone beyond all that. (As if "we" had the ability to "change
our ways" anyway -- whatever all that means.)

It means standing up and telling our government, through our
representatives, that we find the practices they have committed in our
collective name do not reflect our true desires.

At best, your suggestion only works if you believe that our culture isn't
superior to that which predominated during the 6th Century, A.D. -- which is
about where the terrorists are today.

Perhaps, now we're getting to the crux of the matter. So you believe,
that because our cultural supremacy, we have the right to impose our
will over less advanced cultures?

If you think that "changing our ways" to suit their barbaric view of the
world will ensure peace, I suggest you study Neville Chamberlain and
what his government did with the Nazis, some 65 years ago.

I doubt Neil is suggesting that the US attempt to negotiate with
openly militaristic nations bent on world domination. Your
Chamberlain reference appears to be a non sequitur.

I don't see the issue as "changing our ways to suit their barbaric
view of the world" as much as changing our government's actions to
bring them in line with the fine moral values of the majority of our
nation's people.

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
Recently, Jay Honeck posted:

There are other cold hard facts to consider here. We aren't dealing
with "a murderer". We're dealing with entire cultures who just don't
happen to appreciate our way of going about things. So, to make sure
they don't try to kill the rest of our family, perhaps the best
approach is to go about things differently? If so, the best question
to ask is "why do they hate us?", as only an understanding and
addressing of that question can lead to peace.

Well, Neil, I hear you -- but I don't believe that our enemies really
care about how we "change our ways." It's clearly gone beyond all
that. (As if "we" had the ability to "change our ways" anyway --
whatever all that means.)

Well, they say they *do* care about many of the ways that we insert
ourselves in in their midst. The Palestinian issue; our general disrespect
for Islamic (not even radical) traditions, etc.


Neil,

I lived in Tehran, Iran back in 1976-1977 and therefore had a keen interest
in events that took place there not long after I returned to the U.S.A. And
I try to keep up with the reality as it exists today.

While living there, we were often reminded to respect both the religious and
cultural aspects of Iranian life. We knew when it might not be safe to be
on the streets (passions run high during Ramadan...) and which parts of town
to stay out of.

We learned early on that (at least in Iran) the Middle East is rife with
contradictions. What you see is rarely what you get. I'll never forget the
sight of an Iranian woman jumping over a puddle while crossing the street
and her "Chador" blew open revealing the fact that she was wearing a very
expensive, bright yellow business suit and yellow 3" stilletto heels. And
before anyone asks why she wasn't stoned on the spot...at the time, the
"Chador" was culteral in nature and not required by any Islamic tennets.
Unlike now where the zealots want to drive Iran (and the rest of the Middle
East) back to the stone age.

After the Embassy was seized, while the TV cameras were focused on the
"mob", I was getting letters from Iranian friends bemoaning the loss of
friends, dollars, goods and all the other things that they came to know and
like about America. The American TV networks even eventually reported
this...of course, they waited until about day 400 of 444 to do so.

Iran and much of the Middle East went, quite litterally, from camels to cars
in a very short space of time. They tasted success and a modicum of self
determination (the Shah not withstanding...he and his wife (especially) did
do some good things in Iran) and I think, in time, they are going to want it
back.

I saw this article...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7103517/...week/?GT1=6305

....and I have to agree with the author. Frankly, the issues in the Middle
East (by and large...) have very little to do with America or American
policies and a whole lot more to do with their own internal politics and
pressures.

Regards,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ