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#181
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails) Words
T8 wrote:
On Jan 10, 12:34 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote: Science has moved well beyond simple correlation; in fact, the potential for global warming was recognized over a century ago, just based on the physics of CO2 and the atmosphere (look up Svante Arrhenius). The investigation of the impact of CO2 is based on physics, not statistics. You've evidently misread Arrhenius and Angstrom. They thought that the absorption spectrum of CO2 in Earth's atmosphere was well beyond saturation and that further increases in CO2 would have no effect. I didn't mean to imply he had the science correct, only that the potential was recognized. As I understand it, computing the effects of the CO2 spectrum really needs a good computer, not hand calculations; also, I don't think the spectra they had then were sufficiently accurate to do it properly. I mentioned Arrhenius just to inform folks that this is not something Al Gore thought up a few years ago ;-) -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly |
#182
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 10, 1:45*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:25:00 -0800, Tom Gardner wrote: Please do read the reference I've given below. It is readable and regarded as authoritative by *all* "sides" in this debate because it is a disinterested analysis of our options w.r.t. energy futures. .../snippage/... A book that has won plaudits from *all* sides (i.e. big oil, big electricity, politicians, multiple environmental organisations) is http://www.withouthotair.com/or its backup site http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/ A quick comment: this is a *great* reference site. However I've just found out thatwww.withoutair.comis hosted on a bandwidth-limited server that forbids access once the monthly limit is exceeded. If you get a 'bandwidth exceeded' error when trying to access it, use the backup site. I mouthed words when I saw the "bandwidth exceeded"; presumably that's an indirect indication of the high regard in which the book is held. I particularly like Mackay's attitude: - he's sick of hearing "there are huge problems" and - he's sick of hearing "there are huge opportunities" and He wants to know which "huge" is huger, and he does that by generating numbers from theoretical physics and chemistry, and then cross- checking them against measurements. |
#183
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 10, 12:25*pm, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 10, 1:45*pm, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:25:00 -0800, Tom Gardner wrote: Please do read the reference I've given below. It is readable and regarded as authoritative by *all* "sides" in this debate because it is a disinterested analysis of our options w.r.t. energy futures. .../snippage/... A book that has won plaudits from *all* sides (i.e. big oil, big electricity, politicians, multiple environmental organisations) is http://www.withouthotair.com/orits backup site http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/ A quick comment: this is a *great* reference site. However I've just found out thatwww.withoutair.comishosted on a bandwidth-limited server that forbids access once the monthly limit is exceeded. If you get a 'bandwidth exceeded' error when trying to access it, use the backup site. I mouthed words when I saw the "bandwidth exceeded"; presumably that's an indirect indication of the high regard in which the book is held. I particularly like Mackay's attitude: * - he's sick of hearing "there are huge problems" and * - he's sick of hearing "there are huge opportunities" and He wants to know which "huge" is huger, and he does that by generating numbers from theoretical physics and chemistry, and then cross- checking them against measurements.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3. Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly. |
#184
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote:
On Jan 10, 12:25*pm, Tom Gardner wrote: On Jan 10, 1:45*pm, Martin Gregorie wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:25:00 -0800, Tom Gardner wrote: Please do read the reference I've given below. It is readable and regarded as authoritative by *all* "sides" in this debate because it is a disinterested analysis of our options w.r.t. energy futures. .../snippage/... A book that has won plaudits from *all* sides (i.e. big oil, big electricity, politicians, multiple environmental organisations) is http://www.withouthotair.com/oritsbackup site http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/ A quick comment: this is a *great* reference site. However I've just found out thatwww.withoutair.comishostedon a bandwidth-limited server that forbids access once the monthly limit is exceeded. If you get a 'bandwidth exceeded' error when trying to access it, use the backup site. I mouthed words when I saw the "bandwidth exceeded"; presumably that's an indirect indication of the high regard in which the book is held. I particularly like Mackay's attitude: * - he's sick of hearing "there are huge problems" and * - he's sick of hearing "there are huge opportunities" and He wants to know which "huge" is huger, and he does that by generating numbers from theoretical physics and chemistry, and then cross- checking them against measurements.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3. Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly. Very true. MacKay has interesting, simple and plainly valid "normalisation techniques", *one* of which is: - work out the land area we each occupy (in the UK) i.e. area/population, which has to be sufficient for all our needs if we are to be self-sufficient - for each use to which that area could be put, how much can we extract - what are our current needs, and how could they be realistically changed Examples are energy from wind, energy from crops, energy for food, energy for cars or busses or trains or aircraft etc. |
#185
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote:
Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3. Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly. As MacKay says ... In a climate where people don’t understand the numbers, newspapers, campaigners, companies, and politicians can get away with murder. We need simple numbers, and we need the numbers to be comprehen- sible, comparable, and memorable. With numbers in place, we will be better placed to answer questions such as these: 1) Can a country like Britain conceivably live on its own renewable en- ergy sources? 2) If everyone turns their thermostats one degree closer to the outside temperature, drives a smaller car, and switches off phone chargers when not in use, will an energy crisis be averted? 3) Should the tax on transportation fuels be signi?cantly increased? 4) Should speed-limits on roads be halved? 5) Is someone who advocates windmills over nuclear power stations “an enemy of the people”? 6) If climate change is “a greater threat than terrorism,” should govern- ments criminalize “the glori?cation of travel” and pass laws against “advocating acts of consumption”? 7) Will a switch to “advanced technologies” allow us to eliminate car- bon dioxide pollution without changing our lifestyle? 8) Should people be encouraged to eat more vegetarian food? 9) Is the population of the earth six times too big? |
#186
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
More to the point, he has earned tens of millions with his books, movie, and clean energy investments, and all this money is put into the nonprofit Alliance for Climate Protection to fight climate change. *All* the money? *That is impressive. *One might wonder how he pays his bills. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Just for the sake of accuracy he The home that the Gores live in (both their home and their offices) was handed down in the family. Al Gore's father was a senator from TN for many many years. That is the home where Al Gore grew up. Belle Meade is a very exclusive enclave suburb outside of Nashville. Al Gore spent more than the house cost in order to change what he could to make it more energy efficient. (some failed experiments as well, like the heated water pipes in the flooring) - solar heating in the pool house. Also, Al Gore established a new electrical cooperative in the area. The new cooperative he started purchases alternative energy to produce electricity. when this was started years ago, few of the other Nashville residents would purchase electricity from this cooperative. Al Gore's family spent years spending twice as much as any other home owner in the area for electricity, because he insisted on using alternative fuel sources for his electricity. In recent years, the cost has become more reasonable as more people have joined the cooperative. Back to climate control, but until you can make changes to lessen your carbon footprint and be accurate about the reporting of it....leave the Gore family out of it. (whether you are democrat or republican, or green, or independent) |
#187
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On Jan 10, 1:47*pm, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote: Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3. Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly. As MacKay says ... In a climate where people don’t understand the numbers, newspapers, campaigners, companies, and politicians can get away with murder. We need simple numbers, and we need the numbers to be comprehen- sible, comparable, and memorable. With numbers in place, we will be better placed to answer questions such as these: 1) Can a country like Britain conceivably live on its own renewable en- ergy sources? 2) If everyone turns their thermostats one degree closer to the outside temperature, drives a smaller car, and switches off phone chargers when not in use, will an energy crisis be averted? 3) Should the tax on transportation fuels be signi?cantly increased? 4) Should speed-limits on roads be halved? 5) Is someone who advocates windmills over nuclear power stations “an enemy of the people”? 6) If climate change is “a greater threat than terrorism,” should govern- ments criminalize “the glori?cation of travel” and pass laws against “advocating acts of consumption”? 7) Will a switch to “advanced technologies” allow us to eliminate car- bon dioxide pollution without changing our lifestyle? 8) Should people be encouraged to eat more vegetarian food? 9) Is the population of the earth six times too big? I sort of liked the "tongue in cheek" idea expressed in (I think) the San Jose, CA Mercury News that gasoline taxes should escalate with the amount purchased. For example, 5 gallons would cost $5 while 50 gallons would cost $500. Of course a Hummer could be driven station to station buying 5 gallons at each but that would get tiresome in a hurry. Meanwhile, the owner of a super-efficient vehicle would be rewarded with $1/Gal gas. |
#188
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
On 10 Jan, 20:39, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote: MacKay has interesting, simple and plainly valid "normalisation techniques", *one* of which is: * - work out the land area we each occupy (in the UK) * * i.e. area/population, which has to be sufficient for * * all our needs if we are to be self-sufficient * - for each use to which that area could be put, how * * much can we extract * - what are our current needs, and how could they be * * realistically changed Examples are energy from wind, energy from crops, energy for food, energy for cars or busses or trains or aircraft etc.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The UK Government was very keen on carbon neutral biofuels from crops, until it was pointed out to them that the land area required would leave very little for growing food! Derek Copeland |
#189
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Global Warming/Climate Change (was contrails)
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#190
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Coco Kandi (was Global Warming/Climate Change...)
bildan wrote:
/snip/ I sort of liked the "tongue in cheek" idea expressed in (I think) the San Jose, CA Mercury News that gasoline taxes should escalate with the amount purchased. For example, 5 gallons would cost $5 while 50 gallons would cost $500. Of course a Hummer could be driven station to station buying 5 gallons at each but that would get tiresome in a hurry. Meanwhile, the owner of a super-efficient vehicle would be rewarded with $1/Gal gas. ...which reminds me - after taking a joyride out to a local field not 30 miles away, Quanah (named for an illustrious Indian chief of yore) and looking over the virtual time capsule in the flight lounge, with its newpaper cuttings - one describing the opening of the field in 1941 and the intrepid band of would be pilots who bought a Cub (??) to train with, onto an obit of one of this gang when he died in his nineties after a sixty six year marriage (I noticed he did not survive his wife by long). Oops! I am drifting away. When I put the plane away and noted the Hobbs and Tach time in my log, I stopped for tea (Stands the Clock at Half Past Three?) and noticed a convoy of two rag tops which looked remarkably like the Mercedes sub-compact - is it the Smart Car? The logo said Coco Kandi ( I am not making this up) These were the first I'd seen in this little town. One driver said they go for $6 or $7 grand in Oklahoma City (can this be right?) Brian W |
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