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"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message . .. "Yama" wrote in message ... "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... He also seems to have left out the ESM system which is quite elaborate in the F-22. It can take an AMRAAM shot with it without even using it's main radar. Also he was incorrect on the F-22's speed. The mach 1.7 he lists in in dry thrust and it wasn't even max military power. Paul Metz stated on a Discovery special that the maximum speed of the F-22 is classified but that it will go Mach 2.5. To quote him ". . .it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. It's top speed is classifed but it will do Mach 2.5" This suggests that the top speed in afterburner is over Mach 2.5. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot of the F-22 program. I am sceptical. Doesn't F-22 have fixed intakes? Speeds over mach 2.0 are pretty much impossible to attain with fixed intakes. Besides, such speeds require some special materials in radome, canopy etc. which tend to be more expensive, may not be compatible with stealth requirements etc. What I've seen for F-22 speeds as in combat configuration are mach 1.4-1.5 with supercruise, and 1.8 to 2.0 with afterburner. YF-23 was said to be faster, especially with F120 engines. The F-104 was a 50's design with fixed intakes, and was able to achieve well over M 2.0, so Mach 2+ is doable with fixed intakes. With 40+ more years of intake design development, even more *should* be possible. The intakes on an F104 had a (fixed) centerbody to generate shock within the inlet. A plain inlet seems to be limited to right at M2.0 (F16-land). There's a boundary-layer splitter on the F-22 inlet but that appears to be that. The point is largely moot because those other airplanes can only hit high Mach numbers clean and in AB (ie, for a few minutes). There've been a lot of religious arguments here about what "true supercruise" is and what airplanes can do it and it plainly has to mean "with ordnance aboard" or it means nothing at all. The F-22 is certainly the fastest airplane in the world with anything more than a tank full of cannon ammunition and possibly a pair of wing-tip missiles. |
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On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:44:46 +0200, "Yama"
wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . He also seems to have left out the ESM system which is quite elaborate in the F-22. It can take an AMRAAM shot with it without even using it's main radar. Also he was incorrect on the F-22's speed. The mach 1.7 he lists in in dry thrust and it wasn't even max military power. Paul Metz stated on a Discovery special that the maximum speed of the F-22 is classified but that it will go Mach 2.5. To quote him ". . .it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. It's top speed is classifed but it will do Mach 2.5" This suggests that the top speed in afterburner is over Mach 2.5. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot of the F-22 program. I am sceptical. Maybe you missed that last line. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot, I think he'd know. oesn't F-22 have fixed intakes? Speeds over mach 2.0 are pretty much impossible to attain with fixed intakes. Despite what much of the media would have you believe fixed inlets mean zippo. The XF8-U Crusader III's inlet was fixed and it was good up to Mach three. The highest it got was 2.3 because of the plasic windshield and they planned to replace it with a glass one shortly there after but the program ended up getting cancelled. The test pilots were confident it would have reached 2.9 as it was still rapidly accelerating at 2.3. It all depends on what speed the inlets are optimized for. IIRC the Bomarc had fixed inlets too and the B model was good for well over Mach 3. Come to think of it I'm pretty sure ASALM had a fixed inlet too and it went well over Mach 5. esides, such speeds require some special materials in radome The YF-12 of the sixties had a radome that was good for at least Mach 3.2 canopy etc. The F-15 was originally going to be designed to reach Mach 2.7 but when they decided to go with the acrilyc canopy they had to back it off to 2.5. I find it difficult to believe that haven't figure out how to make one a tad better at high speeds in the past 30 years. hich tend to be more expensive, may not be compatible with stealth requirements etc. The canopy has a metallic coating for just this reason which is why it has the gold look to it. What I've seen for F-22 speeds as in combat configuration are mach 1.4-1.5 with supercruise, It's hit 1.7 that they've released. and 1.8 to 2.0 with afterburner. YF-23 was said to be faster, especially with F120 engines. The top speed for the YF-23 is still classified ironically. GE has estimated that it's non afterburner speed would have likely been over 1.8 |
#3
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... Despite what much of the media would have you believe fixed inlets mean zippo. The XF8-U Crusader III's inlet was fixed and it was good up to Mach three. The highest it got was 2.3 because of the plasic windshield and they planned to replace it with a glass one shortly there after but the program ended up getting cancelled. The test pilots were confident it would have reached 2.9 as it was still rapidly accelerating at 2.3. It all depends on what speed the inlets are optimized for. IIRC the Bomarc had fixed inlets too and the B model was good for well over Mach 3. Come to think of it I'm pretty sure ASALM had a fixed inlet too and it went well over Mach 5. March AFB used to have an LGM-30B mounted outside 15th Air Force Headquarters Operations Center and the plaque displayed under speed...Mach 16+. Tex |
#4
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:44:46 +0200, "Yama" wrote: "Scott Ferrin" wrote in message .. . He also seems to have left out the ESM system which is quite elaborate in the F-22. It can take an AMRAAM shot with it without even using it's main radar. Also he was incorrect on the F-22's speed. The mach 1.7 he lists in in dry thrust and it wasn't even max military power. Paul Metz stated on a Discovery special that the maximum speed of the F-22 is classified but that it will go Mach 2.5. To quote him ". . .it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. It's top speed is classifed but it will do Mach 2.5" This suggests that the top speed in afterburner is over Mach 2.5. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot of the F-22 program. I am sceptical. Maybe you missed that last line. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot, I think he'd know. oesn't F-22 have fixed intakes? Speeds over mach 2.0 are pretty much impossible to attain with fixed intakes. Despite what much of the media would have you believe fixed inlets mean zippo. The XF8-U Crusader III's inlet was fixed and it was good up to Mach three. The highest it got was 2.3 because of the plasic windshield and they planned to replace it with a glass one shortly there after but the program ended up getting cancelled. The test pilots were confident it would have reached 2.9 as it was still rapidly accelerating at 2.3. It all depends on what speed the inlets are optimized for. IIRC the Bomarc had fixed inlets too and the B model was good for well over Mach 3. Come to think of it I'm pretty sure ASALM had a fixed inlet too and it went well over Mach 5. The F-104, XF8U-3 and for that matter the Mirage III all had centerbodies in their inlets to generate a second shock located near the inlet lip. In the case of the F8U-3, the centerbody was the radome. While I'm with you that Metz is in the best position to know, I will be fascinated to learn how a M2.5 inlet with decent pressure recovery works without some sort of second shock generator in the inlet. The inner wall of the inlet (with the boundary layer splitter) may form a fixed shock generator since the inlet lip of the F22 is "swept" back WRT the splitter. |
#5
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:44:46 +0200, "Yama" wrote: I am sceptical. Maybe you missed that last line. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot, I think he'd know. I'd also think that he is not allowed to distribute still unreleased flight performance data. oesn't F-22 have fixed intakes? Speeds over mach 2.0 are pretty much impossible to attain with fixed intakes. Despite what much of the media would have you believe fixed inlets mean zippo. No, they mean very much. It is certainly POSSIBLE to make a mach2+ plane with fixed intake, but this will do very bad things to inlet performance in other speeds (which are considerably more important). All your cited examples are such cases. esides, such speeds require some special materials in radome The YF-12 of the sixties had a radome that was good for at least Mach 3.2 canopy etc. The F-15 was originally going to be designed to reach Mach 2.7 but when they decided to go with the acrilyc canopy they had to back it off to 2.5. I find it difficult to believe that haven't figure out how to make one a tad better at high speeds in the past 30 years. See above. It comes down to what is possible and what is sensible. If solving problems of Mach2+ flight regarding *serviceable combat aircraft* was so trivial as you make it sound, each and every modern fighter plane would go Mach3 or more. Engine thrust has not been a limiting factor in fighter top speed in like 40 years. In addition to that, F-22 also has considerable stealth requirements. Radar-absorbing paints for example may not be very tolerant to high speeds. What I've seen for F-22 speeds as in combat configuration are mach 1.4-1.5 with supercruise, It's hit 1.7 that they've released. In what load configuration? |
#6
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Yama wrote:
"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... He also seems to have left out the ESM system which is quite elaborate in the F-22. It can take an AMRAAM shot with it without even using it's main radar. Also he was incorrect on the F-22's speed. The mach 1.7 he lists in in dry thrust and it wasn't even max military power. Paul Metz stated on a Discovery special that the maximum speed of the F-22 is classified but that it will go Mach 2.5. To quote him ". . .it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. It's top speed is classifed but it will do Mach 2.5" This suggests that the top speed in afterburner is over Mach 2.5. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot of the F-22 program. I am sceptical. Doesn't F-22 have fixed intakes? Speeds over mach 2.0 are pretty much impossible to attain with fixed intakes. Besides, such speeds require some special materials in radome, canopy etc. which tend to be more expensive, may not be compatible with stealth requirements etc. The radomes of many mach 2+ aircraft are exactly the same sort of construction (materials, etc.) as that on aircraft from the 1950s. The fiberglass form is essentially transparent to RF - but nothing which a special coating (to replace the normal rubber) can't make stealthy and concealing. Besides - the F-22 is reputed to be using a large number of small active arrays (part of the skin) - in place of a conventional mechanical or electronically-steered antenna. It's liable to be a mess of cabling (or waveguide and ferrites) beneath the skin - but an amazing advance. |
#7
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Yeah,someone ought to ask Paul Metz how fast the F-120 powered YF-23 would go
:-) M1.8 dry ain't too shabby.. |
#8
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"Paul F Austin" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... Data: F-22 Eurofighter Su-35 Raptor Typhoon Superflanker Crew: 1 1 1 Engine: 2 P&W 2 Eurojet 2 Saturn F-119 EJ200 AL-35F 35,000 20,250 28,218 lb each lb each lb each Max Speed: Mach 1.70 Mach 2.0 Mach 2.35 Gun: 20mm GE 27mm Mauser 30mm GSh-30 M61A1 BK 27 linkless ---- Internal: 3 bays: N/A N/A 4 Sidewinder ---- ---- 4 AIM-120A/ ---- ---- 6 AIM-120C/ ---- ---- GBU-32 JDAM ---- ---- External: 4 hardpoints 13 hardpoints 12 hardpoints 5000 lb ord. ARM,ASRAAM,IRIS-T * 6 different AAMs or fuel METEOR,STORM SHADOW, * 6 different ASMs Features: Stealth (RAM KEPD350,ALARM,GBU-10/12 * various IR/LG/TVG + serrated 80% CF construction bombs edges) * future anti-radar pod * anti-radiation Supercruise: Yes Yes No Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear NO12 Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted sight Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW IRST ECM pods DASS ESM Pods quadraplex FBW *future FBL Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for the F-22. That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that facility? I know Grypen does. Typhoon does have a datalink capability. There are also a lot more than 148 ordered (if the original orders go through its over 600) Comparison of tankage would be helpful both internal and with external tanks. |
#9
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"Ian Craig" wrote in message ... "Paul F Austin" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... Data: F-22 Eurofighter Su-35 Raptor Typhoon Superflanker Crew: 1 1 1 Engine: 2 P&W 2 Eurojet 2 Saturn F-119 EJ200 AL-35F 35,000 20,250 28,218 lb each lb each lb each Max Speed: Mach 1.70 Mach 2.0 Mach 2.35 Gun: 20mm GE 27mm Mauser 30mm GSh-30 M61A1 BK 27 linkless ---- Internal: 3 bays: N/A N/A 4 Sidewinder ---- ---- 4 AIM-120A/ ---- ---- 6 AIM-120C/ ---- ---- GBU-32 JDAM ---- ---- External: 4 hardpoints 13 hardpoints 12 hardpoints 5000 lb ord. ARM,ASRAAM,IRIS-T * 6 different AAMs or fuel METEOR,STORM SHADOW, * 6 different ASMs Features: Stealth (RAM KEPD350,ALARM,GBU-10/12 * various IR/LG/TVG + serrated 80% CF construction bombs edges) * future anti-radar pod * anti-radiation Supercruise: Yes Yes No Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear NO12 Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted sight Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW IRST ECM pods DASS ESM Pods quadraplex FBW *future FBL Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for the F-22. That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that facility? I know Grypen does. Typhoon does have a datalink capability. There's datalinks and datalinks. Saying Typhoon has one is like saying it has wheels. IDL manages beam direction and radiated power and uses a covert waveform to minimize probability of detection outside the local group. At the same time, there's sensor fusion within the local group with sensor data passed from AC to AC so that everyone sees what anyone sees. If you want (more than you would believe) data links, go he http://www.afceaeriecanal.org/AFRL.Minges.ppt for an overview of the web of USAF links. |
#10
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On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 06:42:54 -0500, "Paul F Austin" wrote:
"Ian Craig" wrote in message ... "Paul F Austin" wrote in message ... "robert arndt" wrote in message om... Data: F-22 Eurofighter Su-35 Raptor Typhoon Superflanker Crew: 1 1 1 Engine: 2 P&W 2 Eurojet 2 Saturn F-119 EJ200 AL-35F 35,000 20,250 28,218 lb each lb each lb each Max Speed: Mach 1.70 Mach 2.0 Mach 2.35 Gun: 20mm GE 27mm Mauser 30mm GSh-30 M61A1 BK 27 linkless ---- Internal: 3 bays: N/A N/A 4 Sidewinder ---- ---- 4 AIM-120A/ ---- ---- 6 AIM-120C/ ---- ---- GBU-32 JDAM ---- ---- External: 4 hardpoints 13 hardpoints 12 hardpoints 5000 lb ord. ARM,ASRAAM,IRIS-T * 6 different AAMs or fuel METEOR,STORM SHADOW, * 6 different ASMs Features: Stealth (RAM KEPD350,ALARM,GBU-10/12 * various IR/LG/TVG + serrated 80% CF construction bombs edges) * future anti-radar pod * anti-radiation Supercruise: Yes Yes No Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear NO12 Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted sight Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW IRST ECM pods DASS ESM Pods quadraplex FBW *future FBL Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for the F-22. That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that facility? I know Grypen does. Typhoon does have a datalink capability. There's datalinks and datalinks. Saying Typhoon has one is like saying it has wheels. IDL manages beam direction and radiated power and uses a covert waveform to minimize probability of detection outside the local group. At the same time, there's sensor fusion within the local group with sensor data passed from AC to AC so that everyone sees what anyone sees. If you want (more than you would believe) data links, go he http://www.afceaeriecanal.org/AFRL.Minges.ppt for an overview of the web of USAF links. Not to mention that the F-22 is generations ahead of the other aircraft when it comes to LO technology and implementation. The Typhoon and the SU-35 are giant reflectors by comparison. Al Minyard |
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