If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
Robert M. Gary wrote:
Is there any airport that uses timed approaches? I though this was FAA legacy stuff. Could be useful during high traffic fly-ins if there is no radar though I guess. In the USAF, we used timed approaches off and on in the Approach Control facilities (RAPCONS), works well when you have lots of recoveries of similar type aircraft from the same area and they all need a complete procedure from the IAF for proficiency. When I was in the USAF, they also used a compressed version of timed approaches that crammed a whole lot of recovering airplanes into a small area. It was called ASLAR (Aircraft Surge Launch and Recovery) and was designed for periods when the radar was inop or it was inadvisable to turn the radar on, and weather was IFR. It required pilot proficiency and training in ASLAR and specific airspeeds to be flown at specific points on the procedure so that a following aircraft would not overtake a preceding aircraft. ASLAR also had the capacity to allow a wingman to "drag" behind the lead on final so that by the time they got to the runway they had full runway separation. It was more efficient than using radar in some situations. JPH |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08... An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they forget, ask. An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure
without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold? If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue a hold. Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of self-preservation wants to know. If I'm told to expect a hold, perhaps there are weather delays or even a traffic situation [maybe a NORDO ahead] I'll ask for a reduced speed, perhaps I filed 260 KTAS and can slow to 200-220 KTAS and avoid holding and still give them time. If I have requested a hold for training, I'll tell them I want 3 or four turns and I'll try to do it away from the FAF to ease the load on the system. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P -- The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome. some support http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties. "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net... | | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08... | | An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they | forget, ask. | | | An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected. | | |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message news:%D0vf.40496$QW2.15228@dukeread08... But if no delay is expected and you have a radio failure without an EFC, just how long are you expected to hold? You're not expected to hold. If you are given a clearance to hold w/o an EFC there is still some delay expected, otherwise ATC would not issue a hold. If a delay was expected an EFC would have been issued. Make them say how much delay or give an EFC/EAC time or you'll be holding until the fuel runs out. Maybe the book does not require ATC to issue a time, but my sense of self-preservation wants to know. How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do not specify an EFC if no delay is expected. If your sense of self-preservation can't live with that don't fly IFR. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:35:47 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message news:Xk0vf.40491$QW2.2848@dukeread08... An EFC should always be part of a hold clearance, if they forget, ask. An EFC is not issued when no delay is expected. If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in the first place? If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to leave the hold? Allen |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
"A Lieberman" wrote in message ... If no delay is expected, then why be put in the hold in the first place? It's a tool of nonradar separation, it's called a "paper stop". Let's say two aircraft are estimated to cross at a fix eight minutes apart. Minimum separation is ten minutes, so some action must be taken. The later aircraft is issued a hold prior to the common fix. Since the first aircraft is expected to pass the common fix before the second aircraft reaches the holding fix no delay is expected and no EFC is issued. If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to leave the hold? Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot point anyway, whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:57:35 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
How much delay? The answer is "None." The book says do not specify an EFC if no delay is expected. I respectfully disagree as there is time frame in your book.taken from http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html 5. When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit. So, if you don't give me a clearance beyond my fix, then the pilot should expecting an EFC if he has to hold over a fix. In other words, as soon as I have to enter a hold, I should be expecting an EFC as now there is a delay. After all, you have me spinning in circles. My expected time enroute does not include time to hold over a fix. Allen |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the same way The most common cause of radio failure is electrical failure, which will indeed take out both your com and your nav, but there are scenarios which will just take out your com. I've once had a relay in the audio panel go TU and do exactly that. I once had a com radio fail in a way that just produced intensly loud static. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
"A Lieberman" wrote in message ... I respectfully disagree as there is time frame in your book.taken from http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html 5. When no delay is expected, the controller should issue a clearance beyond the fix as soon as possible and, whenever possible, at least 5 minutes before the aircraft reaches the clearance limit. So, if you don't give me a clearance beyond my fix, then the pilot should expecting an EFC if he has to hold over a fix. In other words, as soon as I have to enter a hold, I should be expecting an EFC as now there is a delay. After all, you have me spinning in circles. My expected time enroute does not include time to hold over a fix. http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0406.html#4-6-1 See subparagraph c. |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Newbie holding questions
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:22:11 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
If no EFC and radios go belly up while in IMC, when would you know to leave the hold? Without an EFC I wouldn't enter the hold. It's a moot point anyway, whatever caused my comm radios to go belly up will affect my nav radios the same way and I won't be able to identify the holding fix. Not true. Stuck mic comes to mind quickly. Squelch set too high would be second in mind. Something could fry within the com unit.... NAV still works, and before radios went south, at least the EFC would allow me to navigate predictably. Again, realizing remotely possible, the rules and regs did build this in with the EFC feature. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Questions from a newbie. | Andrew Tubbiolo | Home Built | 9 | September 14th 04 01:40 AM |
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions List (FAQ) | Ron Wanttaja | Home Built | 0 | September 2nd 04 05:15 AM |
Newbie with questions... | Mike \(Remove X's to reply\) | Piloting | 10 | February 14th 04 01:16 AM |
Newbie questions Rail / Ejector launchers | AL | Military Aviation | 19 | November 14th 03 07:47 PM |
Basic Stupid Newbie Questions... | John Penta | Military Aviation | 5 | September 19th 03 05:23 PM |