Are You Flying a "Beater?"

I bought the cherokee not long after I soloed because I was
really worried about the rentals.

And no I don't skimp on safety. Cosmetics, yes. Safety and
comfort, no.

In the first year of ownership, I took these steps (in this order):
complete rebuild and recover the front 2 seats.
shoulder harnesses for the front and new seat belts in the back
hoerner wing tips
belly strobe (the plane, not me)

In the next couple years:
intercom (had the original A/B switch)
replaced the iffy narco with TKM
replaced the ok narco with SL30
new VOR/GS head (old one didn't work)

Last year
new ASI
overhauled VSI and AI
repaired the wind-up clock
replaced Bendix on starter (under warranty)

This year (so far...)
checked rigging (rudder *way* out of alignment and tension on cables)

Does it need paint? Yup. But that can wait. Does it need a new
interior? Not really. It's in surprisingly good shape (headliner almost
immaculate, no problems with any of the side panels). I just hate it.
It's the original barfy, 1969-era vinyl with fake plastic wood.

I use the same rules for the car and the airplane. Safety issues are
fixed immediately. Comfort, real fast (think summer in the
southwest -- fix that AC in the car NOW!). Cosmetics? Not even
under discussion for the time being.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:ut9yc.67100$3x.53481@attbi_s54...
I dunno...I was looking at a early 80's model F33 a while ago that was
pristine on the outside, and had an old analog DME on the inside.
mechanically it was okay.

IMHO, it's sorta like gutters on a house. You can often tell more about a
home owner from his gutters than from his resume.

In my experience the outside of the plane usually matches the inside --
unless it's a new owner in the midst of upgrades.

Avionics are an entirely different animal. I've seen absolutely pristine
aircraft with totally antiquated, out-dated avionics, simply because
that's
what the owner knows and feels most comfortable with. But I have yet to
find a bug-encrusted, oil-covered, bald-tired plane that wasn't
questionable
mechanically.

Yes...and another thing I saw was lots of nice paint jobs and redone
interiors, or nice Garmin packages. One F33A had a Garmin 530/430/327
upgrade, but the engine had been through two top end overhauls in 1500
hours. One had a recent replace with leather interior, and less than 1000
hours TTSN (a 1990) but the engine had metal in the oil filter and
compression was really low in one cylinder.

A flight school arround here buys wrecks / beaters fixes them to make them
airworthy, runs them out and then sells them. I got tired of rentals that
have paint falling off "In Sheets" and finding out that after 2 weeks a
landing light is still burn out and I will not be able to fly it for my
desired flight Or something someone else wrote down was marked off as
deferred to next inspection by the front counter "loose lock nut".

This problem was easily solved I purchased my own airplane and now I know
things will get done. I know when the airplane's oil has been changed and if
any maintenance issues are found i can have them fixed. I also know that
there was not a person just out flying it at redline on the tach. & bouncing
it off the runway on its nose wheel.


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:nN_xc.23080$HG.18275@attbi_s53...
AvWeb is reporting that "an alarming number of aircraft" are in poor
mechanical condition.

I must admit that their assessment matches my own observations. Some of
the
planes I see regularly flying are almost scary -- and some of the planes
I've seen in hangars and on ramps I can only pray never take flight under
their own power.

As a renter, I flew planes that (on occasion) had doors that wouldn't
latch,
lorans that didn't work, had sticky throttles, questionable radios, and
leaky fuel caps -- and those were just the defects I, as a new, renter
pilot, could detect. God only knows what was going on under the cowl.

I once flew a rental plane on a long cross-country that did not have any
valve cover gaskets installed on the right side of the engine. Oil
covered
the plane, and scared the bejeesus out of us when we landed. (The A&P's
helper who "forgot" to install them was summarily fired for this, BTW.)

As an owner, I have endeavored to keep my planes pristine, with only the
best maintenance and accessories. IMHO, this is the only way to treat a
machine that carries my family several thousand feet into the sky -- yet,
it
is obvious that there are many pilots and owners who don't see it that
way.

I personally know a pilot who keeps his automobiles and motorcycles
maintained to perfection -- yet scrimps and cheats on his airplane
maintenance. He's an otherwise "normal" individual, yet he seems to take
pleasure in running his engine way over TBO, and flying around on
upholstery
that has metal sticking through the mesh. His panel is mostly
non-functional, the paint is long gone, and all plastic parts are badly
cracked and chipped.

It's almost as if he feels like he's beating "the system" by scrimping
like
this -- he likes to brag about how little it costs him to fly -- yet most
of
us on the field just think he's acting irrationally.

How about it? Are *you* flying a "beater?" Or do you know anyone who
does? What's going on here?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

This problem was easily solved I purchased my own airplane and now I know
things will get done. I know when the airplane's oil has been changed and
if
any maintenance issues are found i can have them fixed. I also know that
there was not a person just out flying it at redline on the tach. &
bouncing
it off the runway on its nose wheel.

Agree 100%. Knowing your airplane's maintenance and flying history makes
owning worth all the headaches.

Just one nit: Running at "redline" in a light aircraft isn't the same as in
your car. Aircraft engines turn very slowly, by comparison, and "red line"
is set conservatively low. Continuous operation at full throttle burns a
lot of gas, but it isn't unsafe.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
Just one nit: Running at "redline" in a light aircraft isn't the same as in
your car. Aircraft engines turn very slowly, by comparison, and "red line"
is set conservatively low. Continuous operation at full throttle burns a
lot of gas, but it isn't unsafe.

Your not qualified to make this sort of statement.



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

Jay Honeck wrote:

Just one nit: Running at "redline" in a light aircraft isn't the same as in
your car. Aircraft engines turn very slowly, by comparison, and "red line"
is set conservatively low.

No, it's not set "conservatively" low. Because aircraft engines turn slowly, the
valve springs are much lighter than those used in auto engines. This allows the
manufacturers to also build the rest of the valve train much lighter. Because the
entire system is lighter, the valves will begin to float at a much lower rpm than is
typical for cars. Both aircraft and auto tachometer redlines are set low enough to
allow proper fucntioning and avoid damage to the valve train. There's about the same
amount of safety factor in both cases.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

Jay Masino wrote:

Jay Honeck wrote:

Continuous operation at full throttle...isn't unsafe.

Your not qualified to make this sort of statement.

What are your qualifications to make that accusation?

Are you saying that you could not safely operate your Cherokee 140 at continuous
full throttle safely?

If so, you must cruise at very low altitudes. I would expect full throttle at
normal cruise altitudes to give you 75-65% power, and less in the warmer weather.



Jack

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:nN_xc.23080$HG.18275@attbi_s53...

How about it? Are *you* flying a "beater?" Or do you know anyone who
does? What's going on here?

Ours needs paint and looks pretty rough on the outside, but everything
works. I trust it completely. It flys and flys and never lets us down.
Next week the windshield and glazed pilot side window are being
replaced as well a several items under the cowling. We may have it
painted someday when we can comfortabley afford it, however, we're not
in a hurry to sink a lot of money into making it look like a show
plane so we can whine about what it costs to fly. Those who see us fly
will simply have to remain unimpressed.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

Jack wrote:
What are your qualifications to make that accusation?

My engineering degree PLUS over 12 years of working side by side with my
mechanic and disassembling/re-assembling nearly every major component in
my plane.

Are you saying that you could not safely operate your Cherokee 140 at continuous
full throttle safely?

The implication was operating at or above redline. It might be safe or it
might be "somewhat less" than safe. Jay can't claim that it's completely
safe. There are young pilots reading these newsgroups and it's not
prudent to make these sorts of claims. Someone might follow his claim and
go out and get themselves hurt.

--- Jay



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
No, it's not set "conservatively" low. Because aircraft engines turn slowly, the
valve springs are much lighter than those used in auto engines. This allows the
manufacturers to also build the rest of the valve train much lighter. Because the
entire system is lighter, the valves will begin to float at a much lower rpm than is
typical for cars. Both aircraft and auto tachometer redlines are set low enough to
allow proper fucntioning and avoid damage to the valve train. There's about the same
amount of safety factor in both cases.


Exactly. I also think the rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons) are
not balanced well enough to operate for any extended time at or above
redline, especially when you consider the large tolerances of an air
cooled engine.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com