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#11
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Eric Hocking wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote in message ... Eric Hocking wrote: snip Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at sci.skeptic that; During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any but the farmer from crop fields. During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English countryside. The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the walking ban was lifted in that county. Very community minded is our ET. Any decent scientist knows (a) correlation is not causation Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in British crops. (b) to check the data. Ah, let's just do that shall we? (a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain. Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post? I meant 2001. It was in an offical PDF file which I cannot find again, with the history of F&MD. Feb 27 2001 announcement on footpath closures. http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/newsrel/2001/010227d.htm Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated URL: http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html snip So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in Britain may or may not be just a coincidence. I did not say worldwide - I quite specifically said "English" circles. But I am pointing out it could be world wide. The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being eased. Search your database for any country April 2001, there is only one result, and that is an acknowledged art work. So, what caused the cessation of circlemaking in Britain that year? Surely footpath closures wouldn't have had any effect on airborne ET? The only restriction was on *human* access on the ground to crop fields. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the lifting of those restrictions correlate with the first appearance of new circles in May. They started appearing world over in May. (b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this: Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive URL: http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html First published on October 23 THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop circles in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for them still managed to record some incredible formations. All created in May after the FMD restrictions were eased. That is correlation not proven causation. This as per the cropcircle database site: http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=April http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May [...] In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the croppies had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland, The above statement seems to imply that circles *might* have been created prior to May 2001, but the croppies were unable to find them merely due to to the fact that they were not allowed to do air searches. That's patently untrue as per the Hansard record of May 9 http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200001/cmhansrd/vo010509/text/10509w19.htm The aviation bans were that you could not fly *below* 500ft over infected land or *below* 1000ft over the livestock cremation sites. There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring for circles. Maybe they misunderstood. So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't. You like the correlation, and searching world wide back to Nov 2000 there are very few. Just a couple on ice, one reported on ice too thin to walk on. about 40 formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire. The NUMBER of circles is irrelevant, it is WHEN they appeared. Here's part of my post from 2001, one of the council links is dead and see this link for May 2001 http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May "This is the Hampshire County Council notice regarding F&M http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/footmouth.html Guess when it's dated? You got it 11 May. It links to an emergency plan for Hants: http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/scudamore.html dated March. And of course, the first one in England turned up in? Hampshire - on May 16. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01ab When Wiltshire opened up http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/download...411_order.html Lo and Behold! A crop circle turns up in Wiltshire. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01aq " Not sure how they did it. Waited in the pub until walking restrictions were lifted? Somewhere I read it is admitted that some farmers create them as they get grants for people to come on to their land. Then the scientific tests should be different. |
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Brian Sandle wrote:
Eric Hocking wrote: Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in British crops. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html then go to foot and mouth. 2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002. |
#13
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The topic has diverged from anything meteorological. Please
drop sci.geo.meteorology from the list. Thank you. Brian Sandle wrote: Brian Sandle wrote: Eric Hocking wrote: Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in British crops. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html then go to foot and mouth. 2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002. |
#14
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Dennis M. Rodgers wrote:
The topic has diverged from anything meteorological. Please drop sci.geo.meteorology from the list. Thank you. Grant suggested that ice meteors be in the crop circle category of fakes. But are they fakes, for if they aren't all then that argument may have to be ruled out. No-one has commented on polar stratospheric cloud. Grant pointed out how thin the atmosphere is there. They occur in the winter. Maybe conditions are sufficient to make clouds of water from cometary fragments. Can any large fragments get through? We touched on vortices. Vortex theory was advanced by Kelvin and Thomson, but superceded by the particle theory, though particles were found to have spin. Maybe spin can have a laser effect. Sorry about the dreaming. The simple wind vortices would seem to produce too irregular a form to be recognised as a crop circle. Is there any theory of how smoke rings can bounce off one another, and can that happen with any atmospheric clouds? |
#15
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Dennis M. Rodgers wrote:
The topic has diverged from anything meteorological. Please drop sci.geo.meteorology from the list. Thank you. Grant suggested that ice meteors be in the crop circle category of fakes. But are they fakes, for if they aren't all then that argument may have to be ruled out. No-one has commented on polar stratospheric cloud. Grant pointed out how thin the atmosphere is there. They occur in the winter. Maybe conditions are sufficient to make clouds of water from cometary fragments. Can any large fragments get through? We touched on vortices. Vortex theory was advanced by Kelvin and Thomson, but superceded by the particle theory, though particles were found to have spin. Maybe spin can have a laser effect. Sorry about the dreaming. The simple wind vortices would seem to produce too irregular a form to be recognised as a crop circle. Is there any theory of how smoke rings can bounce off one another, and can that happen with any atmospheric clouds? |
#16
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Brian Sandle wrote:
No-one has commented on polar stratospheric cloud. Grant pointed out how thin the atmosphere is there. They occur in the winter. Maybe conditions are sufficient to make clouds of water from cometary fragments. Can any large fragments get through? We touched on vortices. Vortex theory was advanced by Kelvin and Thomson, but superceded by the particle theory, though particles were found to have spin. Maybe spin can have a laser effect. Sorry about the dreaming. The simple wind vortices would seem to produce too irregular a form to be recognised as a crop circle. Is there any theory of how smoke rings can bounce off one another, and can that happen with any atmospheric clouds? Grant said that if vortices were present which could form ice meteors then there would be clouds, too. But is it possible to have in the upper atmosphere a wind sort of like the Antarctic katabatic, 350 km/hr with a clear sky? What is the velocity of wind in the clear air turbulence which affects aircraft? |
#17
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Dennis M. Rodgers wrote:
Brian Sandle wrote: Is there any theory of how smoke rings can bounce off one another, and can that happen with any atmospheric clouds? Maybe you could find a science fiction newsgroup where this stuff might be well received. It has no relationship to the science of meteorology. How about making some comment on the scientific quesitons I put, the high cloud, the katabatic, the clear air turbulence. Then we can proceed. |
#18
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[note sci.geo.meteorology dropped from followups as requested]
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Eric Hocking wrote: Brian Sandle wrote in message ... Eric Hocking wrote: snip Sorry to drop in out of lurking, but I always found it amusing to watch ET cropcircle proponents squirm when I pointed out at sci.skeptic that; During the foot and mouth disease outbreak in the UK in 2001 the government closed all countryside footpaths, effectively blocking any but the farmer from crop fields. During the ban no crop circles were recorded in the English countryside. The first crop circle in England to be recorded was the day after the walking ban was lifted in that county. Very community minded is our ET. Any decent scientist knows (a) correlation is not causation Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in British crops. (b) to check the data. Ah, let's just do that shall we? (a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain. Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post? I meant 2001. It was in an offical PDF file which I cannot find again, with the history of F&MD. OK - so *most* of the rights of way were open by Sept 2001, this still has nothing to do with my statement that there is a correlation between lack of circle building while the blanket bans were in effect, does it? Further I pointed out ath there is a correlation between the staged openings of rights of way, county by county, and the appearance of the first circles in 2001 in those counties corresponding with those openings. Feb 27 2001 announcement on footpath closures. http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/newsrel/2001/010227d.htm Linkname: CropCircleInvestigated URL: http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/Cro...estigated.html snip So that they occurred world over again at the end of foot and mouth in Britain may or may not be just a coincidence. I did not say worldwide - I quite specifically said "English" circles. But I am pointing out it could be world wide. A point that is quite irrelevant to the discussion though. Blanket bans on countryside rights of way were only in place in Britain due to FMD in 2001. What influence would these bans have on walking in a field in Canada or New Zealand? The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being eased. Search your database for any country April 2001, there is only one result, and that is an acknowledged art work. And this has what to do with my statement about the timing of crop circles appearing in May in areas where blanket bans on access to rights of way were being eased? So, what caused the cessation of circlemaking in Britain that year? Surely footpath closures wouldn't have had any effect on airborne ET? The only restriction was on *human* access on the ground to crop fields. I'm sure it's purely coincidental that the lifting of those restrictions correlate with the first appearance of new circles in May. They started appearing world over in May. As they do each year - but in Britain and specifically England (ie as per my initial point) they did not appear in fields that had blanket bans on access. They only started to appear after these bans were lifted. At least address the point I am making rather than going off on irrelevant tangents. (b) Though I now confound myself somewhat by giving this: Linkname: Weird Wiltshire - Crop Circles - News Archive URL: http://www.thisispewsey.co.uk/wiltsh...rd/231001.html First published on October 23 THE foot and mouth epidemic may have hampered the search for crop circles in Wiltshire's corn fields but the people who spend time looking for them still managed to record some incredible formations. All created in May after the FMD restrictions were eased. That is correlation not proven causation. Give reasonable alternatives to my point then. What caused the different timing and distribution of circle building in 2001? The correlation between the appearance of circles, county by county, and the lifting of blanket bans in those counties, while quite a coincidence, is certainly a compelling coincidence. Have you compared the timing and distribution of circles in 2001 when the bans were in place and those in 2000 and 2002 when no countryside movement bans were in place? This as per the cropcircle database site: http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cg...K&l=&k=&m=Apri l http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May [...] In spite of the foot and mouth restrictions which meant that the croppies had to keep away from fields and could not fly overland, The above statement seems to imply that circles *might* have been created prior to May 2001, but the croppies were unable to find them merely due to to the fact that they were not allowed to do air searches. That's patently untrue as per the Hansard record of May 9 http://www.parliament.the-stationery.../cmhansrd/vo01 0509/text/10509w19.htm The aviation bans were that you could not fly *below* 500ft over infected land or *below* 1000ft over the livestock cremation sites. There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring for circles. Maybe they misunderstood. Maybe, regardless, their statement that they were not able to fly over fields to look for circles is untrue. To imply that this is a reasonable explanation for the lateness of sightings in 2001 holds much less water than my statement that there were not cirlces being made because the people on the *ground* who make the circles were banned from entering fields during that time. So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't. You like the correlation, and searching world wide back to Nov 2000 there are very few. Just a couple on ice, one reported on ice too thin to walk on. What's with these irrelevant tangents? I'm not talking about worldwide, I'm talking about the timing and distribution of circle building in England 2001 and what affect the FMD countryside ban had on it. about 40 formations were officially recorded in Wiltshire. The NUMBER of circles is irrelevant, it is WHEN they appeared. Here's part of my post from 2001, one of the council links is dead and see this link for May 2001 http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=x&y=2001&c=UK&l=&k=&m=May "This is the Hampshire County Council notice regarding F&M http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/footmouth.html Guess when it's dated? You got it 11 May. It links to an emergency plan for Hants: http://www.hants.gov.uk/hcc/emergency/scudamore.html dated March. And of course, the first one in England turned up in? Hampshire - on May 16. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01ab When Wiltshire opened up http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/download...411_order.html Lo and Behold! A crop circle turns up in Wiltshire. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cgi-bin/CCdb?d=uk01aq " Not sure how they did it. Waited in the pub until walking restrictions were lifted? Somewhere I read it is admitted that some farmers create them as they get grants for people to come on to their land. Then you were misled. Farmers do not receive grants for people coming onto their land. Who would be giving out these grants by the way? Farmers can claim some insurance for vandalism, it does not cover the cost of the lost crop. Anecdotally, I have heard that circle builders have offered some cash compensation at times, but the farmers lose more in damaged crop than they make up in these nonexistent grants. About all they can do is ask for an "entry fee" from people who want to access their fields to view a circle. Then the scientific tests should be different. What tests are these? Why should they be different? And what has that got to do with the farmer anecdote above? -- Eric Hocking www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Attempting spam blocking - remove upper case to reply. |
#19
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[sci.g.meteorology dropped from follow-ups]
"Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Brian Sandle wrote: Eric Hocking wrote: Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in British crops. http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/database/index.html then go to foot and mouth. 2001 has very similar figures for April as 2000 and 2002. Hmm, 3 in April 2000, 0 in April 2001 and 1 in 2002. Noted the 2001 was by an artist. The comments on the next two are amusing "Very amateurish looking" and "Fairly rough looking". Must have been apprentice aliens trying it out for the first time! As you suggested I do in an earlier post, check the data. Go also to the county news releases on when and where the blanket bans were lifted and then have a look at when and where the circles started to appear in 2001. By limiting yourself to a single resource, you're not getting the whole picture and limit the points of view you can put forward. In counter to the cropcircleresearch site http://www.circlemakers.org/ specifically http://www.circlemakers.org/totc2001.html for their 2001 round up. -- Eric Hocking www.twofromoz.freeserve.co.uk "A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Attempting spam blocking - remove upper case to reply. |
#20
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Eric Hocking wrote:
[note sci.geo.meteorology dropped from followups as requested] We can go back there and report the results later. "Brian Sandle" wrote in message ... Eric Hocking wrote: Fine - put forward another explanation for the correlation between lifting footpath bans and the late 2001 appearance of circles in British crops. You were saying late 2001, then more recently, see below you are saying it was happening as they cam open in May. (b) to check the data. Ah, let's just do that shall we? (a) About 90% of the walkways were open in September 1991 in Britain. Since I specifically stated 2001, what has this to do with my post? I meant 2001. It was in an offical PDF file which I cannot find again, with the history of F&MD. OK - so *most* of the rights of way were open by Sept 2001, this still has nothing to do with my statement that there is a correlation between lack of circle building while the blanket bans were in effect, does it? Further I pointed out ath there is a correlation between the staged openings of rights of way, county by county, and the appearance of the first circles in 2001 in those counties corresponding with those openings. Where is the data? But I am pointing out it could be world wide. A point that is quite irrelevant to the discussion though. Blanket bans on countryside rights of way were only in place in Britain due to FMD in 2001. What influence would these bans have on walking in a field in Canada or New Zealand? Exactly my point. Though NZ is southern hemisphere, the circles start appearing across nothern hemisphere in May in it was pretty much the same in 2001 as 2000 or 2002. The fact remains that the first cropcircles to appear in BRITAIN, were found and probably created (as per the cropcircle database site) in late/end of May. Just as the FMD footpath restrictions were being eased. It had been a wet season and crops got started late, so so did circles. Search your database for any country April 2001, there is only one result, and that is an acknowledged art work. And this has what to do with my statement about the timing of crop circles appearing in May in areas where blanket bans on access to rights of way were being eased? Some might have been arranged by farmers for extra income after the F&M trouble. They started appearing world over in May. As they do each year - but in Britain and specifically England (ie as per my initial point) they did not appear in fields that had blanket bans on access. They only started to appear after these bans were lifted. At least address the point I am making rather than going off on irrelevant tangents. Data please. That is correlation not proven causation. Give reasonable alternatives to my point then. What caused the different timing and distribution of circle building in 2001? Wet season. The correlation between the appearance of circles, county by county, and the lifting of blanket bans in those counties, while quite a coincidence, is certainly a compelling coincidence. Have you compared the timing and distribution of circles in 2001 when the bans were in place and those in 2000 and 2002 when no countryside movement bans were in place? Here are the data of circles, with the 13 May Hampshire one still in F&M territory. You give the F&M clearance dates for the UK places May 1 2000 Germany 2002 Germany May6 2001 Netherlands, 2002 UK-Wiltshire May 11 2000 Canada May 13 2001 Germany, UK-Hampshire (still F&M territory) May 14 2000 Germany Italy Malaysia UK-Kent UK-Wiltshire May 15 2000 UK-Leicestershire May 17 2000 Germany 2001 Canada May 20 2000 Germany UK-Hampshire UK-Avon UK-Wiltshire 2002 Germany May 22 2000 USA 2001 Italy UK-Dorset USA May 24 2000 Germany 2001 Germany May 25 2000 Germany x3 2001 Germany UK-Wiltshire May 26 2002 Germany May 27 2000 UK-Hampshire May 29 2001 UK-Wiltshire UK-Hertsforshire 2002 Canada May 30 2000 UK-Wiltshire 2001 UK-Wiltshire x2 Yugoslavia 2003 Canada May 31 2000 UK-Avon UK-Wilthsire 2001 UK-Wiltshire x2 plus in 2000 one in UK-Hampshire on an unknown date. This as per the cropcircle database site: http://www.cropcircleresearch.com/cg...K&l=&k=&m=Apri l There was nothing to stop croppies flying over at 1500ft plus scouring for circles. Maybe they misunderstood. Maybe, regardless, their statement that they were not able to fly over fields to look for circles is untrue. To imply that this is a reasonable explanation for the lateness of sightings in 2001 holds much less water than my statement that there were not cirlces being made because the people on the *ground* who make the circles were banned from entering fields during that time. I don't think there is much statistical difference between the years, even now I have mentioned weather. So to claim that there *might* have been circles created before May is moot, since they can't prove it happened and I can't prove it didn't. You like the correlation, and searching world wide back to Nov 2000 there are very few. Just a couple on ice, one reported on ice too thin to walk on. What's with these irrelevant tangents? I'm not talking about worldwide, I'm talking about the timing and distribution of circle building in England 2001 and what affect the FMD countryside ban had on it. They seem to occur all around the world on the same days, sometimes. May 14, 15 2000 there were 6, then only one till May 20 when another 4 showed world-wide. May 24-25 4 Somewhere I read it is admitted that some farmers create them as they get grants for people to come on to their land. Then you were misled. Farmers do not receive grants for people coming onto their land. Who would be giving out these grants by the way? Perhaps it is stewardship grants for farmers farming in national parks. More visitors more money? Farmers can claim some insurance for vandalism, it does not cover the cost of the lost crop. Anecdotally, I have heard that circle builders have offered some cash compensation at times, but the farmers lose more in damaged crop than they make up in these nonexistent grants. About all they can do is ask for an "entry fee" from people who want to access their fields to view a circle. Which they would need after F&M, Though from 20th May 2000 till end of May there were 7 or 8 in UK and in 2001 from 22 May till end 8. Then the scientific tests should be different. What tests are these? Why should they be different? And what has that got to do with the farmer anecdote above? Some look for haematite attracted by magnetic effects. Othe search for Nitric Oxide formed by extremely short duration electric fields. Some look for changes in cellular structure. |
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