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#11
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
Travis Beach wrote:
What say you? Discuss...should we scrap the Pawnee in favor of a Husky? Beach Much has been said and of good quality so I feel I can add my $.02 FWIW. I have been a glider pilot with one primary commercial operation for around 20years and been at the end (trailing end) of a variety of tugs. My perspective has been one where I watched a succesful gliderport operator try a variety of towplanes and eventually pare the fleet down to Pawnees exclusively. In the process I saw Cubs, SuperCubs, a C182, Scout, and a Husky make their way thru the fleet but all thats left are the Pawnees. At my end of the rope, I love 'em. -- Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com |
#12
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
Speak to the people at Lake Kepit Soaring Club in New
South Wales. they had a Husky (new) for a while. Basically the thing was not up to the rigors of towing and essentially fell apart. They now use a Pawnee. Go figure At 23:18 15 October 2007, Travis Beach wrote: Our club has a Piper Pawnee 235hp in excellent condition. We just spent $35000 five years ago to completely overhaul her...new fabric, new engine, anything that needed to be replaced was... Heres the rub...we are in the middle of a new two place acquisition with the club making a decision about getting a new two place intermediate performance. We were about to drop the hammer when a very vocal minority raised the issue of PAWNEE needing to be replaced citing extreme maintenance cost (???) and inability to get parts. He/She cited the local aero repair facility as his/her source of information...Many of us just dont see this as a problem. The replacement that was cited was a Husky 180HP...I just dont see the reasoning of such a switch...I surely would rather two a heavier two place with a proven performer with 235 hp vs a 180... What say you? Discuss...should we scrap the Pawnee in favor of a Husky? Beach |
#13
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
I concur with Cloudy. Eventually, almost all high volume tow
operations in the USA have ended up with Pawnees. Rugged, inexpensive to buy and operate, easy to fly, good viz, good crash protection - what more do you want? Husky's are good for a lot of things but towing is not one of ithem, IMO. They are incredibly expensive to buy (4X+ a Pawnee), parts are very expensive and the Internet is full of people complaining about customer service. There is essentially only 1 place to buy Husky parts and probably hundreds where you can get Pawnee spares. In my 25+ years of towing with and behind Cub, Pawnee Bird Dog, Scout, Citabria, C-182 and others, nothing is a better all-around tug than an 0-540 Pawnee. If you need versatility, a C-182 is probably the best, albeit far inferior to the Pawnee as a pure tug. |
#14
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
I should have said the issue with the Scout was heavy two seat operations..
as Frank mentioned. We can have greater than 200ft AGL at runway end after a 2800ft run with the Pawnee and a heavy two seat Grob 103 or SGS2-33 With the old Scout... barely 75-100ft AGL And the Pawnee does not even feel the 1-26 on tow BT "Frank Whiteley" wrote in message ups.com... On Oct 16, 8:55 pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote: We have a 180HP Scout with a fixed pitch climb prop. We have found it adequate for our needs, even when we fly out of Mackay, ID (5,900' MSL) during our August regatta. (http://www.soaridaho.com/photogaller...006/index.html) Wayne HP-14 "6F"http://www.soaridaho.com/ "BT" wrote in message I don't see any two-seater in the gallery photos. Anyone flying with water there? We had a 180hp Scout at 5500msl. It was very marginal on hot days with water or heavy two-seaters and we used two hours fuel only as full fuel was too heavy. Fuel tanks had recurring leaks. The wood spar AD required extensive recurring inspections (there were metal spar retrofit wings produced). Complete wiring harness was replaced. We also had a U/C strut break, which took out the prop, engine, wing tip, and horizontal, and availability. Never quite the same after repairs. The Scout averaged $1000/month in upkeep and inspections at commercial rates. Despite several objections, we replaced it with a Pawnee 235D, later updated with the 250STC. Pawnee was not without its problems. We looked at 40 Pawnees and went for what we considered the best available on our budget. In retrospect we should have budgeted about $10K more and considered a few more options. Plan on buying the Pawnee a second time in the first 3-4 years until you get it golden. IMVHO, no one sells a really good tow plane at an average price. Cost aside, we've had high availability and get good performance thanks to good management and tow pilot procedures. The 250STC is worth it. IIRC, a Pawnee (with transponder) was reported towing well above it's advertised operational ceiling this past summer on a really high tow. I think our's, also transponder equipped, has been to 11,500msl a couple of times on tow and still climbing okay. 180hp Scouts with metal spars are still being built. $132,900 with constant speed prop. Probably a good choice for all around towing at sites 3000MSL., that is, far more than adequate. Frank Whiteley |
#15
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
On Oct 15, 5:16 pm, Travis Beach
wrote: Our club has a Piper Pawnee 235hp in excellent condition. We just spent $35000 five years ago to completely overhaul her...new fabric, new engine, anything that needed to be replaced was... Heres the rub...we are in the middle of a new two place acquisition with the club making a decision about getting a new two place intermediate performance. We were about to drop the hammer when a very vocal minority raised the issue of PAWNEE needing to be replaced citing extreme maintenance cost (???) and inability to get parts. He/She cited the local aero repair facility as his/her source of information...Many of us just dont see this as a problem. The replacement that was cited was a Husky 180HP...I just dont see the reasoning of such a switch...I surely would rather two a heavier two place with a proven performer with 235 hp vs a 180... What say you? Discuss...should we scrap the Pawnee in favor of a Husky? Beach Received an e-mail from LAVIASA, Argentina today Prices for NEW Pawnees PA-25-235 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 156,634 PA-25-260 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 160,115 PA-25-260 (PROP CONSTANT SPEED) US$ 169,397 |
#16
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
On Oct 20, 12:20 am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
Received an e-mail from LAVIASA, Argentina today Prices for NEW Pawnees PA-25-235 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 156,634 PA-25-260 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 160,115 PA-25-260 (PROP CONSTANT SPEED) US$ 169,397 Hmm, nobody mentioned "upgrading" to new Pawnees (and I didn't know you could get then NEW). Nobody's discussed getting an Air Tractor, or Thrush, or other modern Turbine powered AgPlane. http://www.airtractor.com/Default.aspx?p=4530 With a useful load of 9,495 lbs (isn't that approximately FIVE fully loaded Duo Discus -- or is it Disci?), it would seem to me that the Air Tractor 802 would pay for itself in less than a season, with tows to 5,000 feet taking approximately 2 minutes and 34 seconds. Hmm, turbine -- that means NO shock cooling. Air Conditioning -- that means NO tow pilot whining. 254 gal fuel capacity -- that means gas it up once a week(end). Double or triple tows -- that means maximum 15 minute wait for a tow... Is Jet fuel still less expensive than 100 LL? -Pete #309 |
#17
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
On Oct 20, 9:35 am, 309 wrote:
On Oct 20, 12:20 am, Frank Whiteley wrote: Received an e-mail from LAVIASA, Argentina today Prices for NEW Pawnees PA-25-235 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 156,634 PA-25-260 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 160,115 PA-25-260 (PROP CONSTANT SPEED) US$ 169,397 Hmm, nobody mentioned "upgrading" to new Pawnees (and I didn't know you could get then NEW). Nobody's discussed getting an Air Tractor, or Thrush, or other modern Turbine powered AgPlane.http://www.airtractor.com/Default.aspx?p=4530 With a useful load of 9,495 lbs (isn't that approximately FIVE fully loaded Duo Discus -- or is it Disci?), it would seem to me that the Air Tractor 802 would pay for itself in less than a season, with tows to 5,000 feet taking approximately 2 minutes and 34 seconds. Hmm, turbine -- that means NO shock cooling. Air Conditioning -- that means NO tow pilot whining. 254 gal fuel capacity -- that means gas it up once a week(end). Double or triple tows -- that means maximum 15 minute wait for a tow... Is Jet fuel still less expensive than 100 LL? -Pete #309 Not positive, but I don't think multiple glider tows are allowed under the SSA insurance plan. Turbines consume a lot of fuel while on the ground also, according to a friend of mine. I believe there is a SIAI-Marchetti SM.1019 in Uvalde, 400hp. It's been used as a tow plane but I don't believe it's in regular use. Rate of climb on tow is said to be 2100fpm and 9000fpm descent. 2000ft tow cycle was reportedly three minutes. Similar to winching;^) http://www.warbirds-eaa.org/articles/04_02_featue.pdf http://www.shanaberger.com/sm1019.htm Frank Whiteley |
#18
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
"309" wrote in message oups.com... On Oct 20, 12:20 am, Frank Whiteley wrote: Received an e-mail from LAVIASA, Argentina today Prices for NEW Pawnees PA-25-235 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 156,634 PA-25-260 (PROP FIX PITCH) US$ 160,115 PA-25-260 (PROP CONSTANT SPEED) US$ 169,397 Hmm, nobody mentioned "upgrading" to new Pawnees (and I didn't know you could get then NEW). Nobody's discussed getting an Air Tractor, or Thrush, or other modern Turbine powered AgPlane. http://www.airtractor.com/Default.aspx?p=4530 With a useful load of 9,495 lbs (isn't that approximately FIVE fully loaded Duo Discus -- or is it Disci?), it would seem to me that the Air Tractor 802 would pay for itself in less than a season, with tows to 5,000 feet taking approximately 2 minutes and 34 seconds. With aviation fuels approaching $7/gallon, the last thing you want is higher fuel consumption. Turbines suck fuel. They also don't like a lot of start-up and shut-down cycles. I don't think any tow plane ever pays for itself once all 'hidden' costs are considered. Operating an old rag and tube airplane of any kind is fraught with 'nickel & dime' costs that add up. The last time I took a hard look, a Pawnee runs about $150 USD/hour. With rapidly escalating costs of fuel and insurance, it will probably be $200/hour by next summer. You don't operate small airplanes to make money, you do it because you either need to or want to. Tugs are cost centers not profit centers. I think any club interested in lowering operating costs should be investigating winches. Bill Daniels |
#19
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
On Oct 20, 9:45 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
I don't think any tow plane ever pays for itself once all 'hidden' costs are considered. Operating an old rag and tube airplane of any kind is fraught with 'nickel & dime' costs that add up. The last time I took a hard look, a Pawnee runs about $150 USD/hour. With rapidly escalating costs of fuel and insurance, it will probably be $200/hour by next summer. You don't operate small airplanes to make money, you do it because you either need to or want to. Tugs are cost centers not profit centers. I think any club interested in lowering operating costs should be investigating winches. Bill Daniels I forgot to add my "turbine tow would require winch launch authorization" punch line. ;-) Thanks, Frank. If somebody made a twin-turbine-taildragger tug, you could get the tow pilots to PAY for that time (building time for th airlines...). Turbine Beech-18 gets logged as Complex-Multi-Taildragger-Turbine-High Performance time...worth $200.00 per hour for training to be a line pilot. Yeah, I'd go back to the club and put up with the politics for that! Since AUTO fuel will quickly be over $4.00 per gallon (it already has "traded" above that in Beverly Hills), the winches aren't going to be a hell of a lot better -- if we must insist on suckering, er I mean recruiting teenagers into our dying sport. (Flame away, guys...I'm trying to get my kids interested -- _I_ have a hard time competing with video games, even when I shut the power off). I suspect we'll soon be back to hilltops and bungee cords... Quick, we must assemble a protest march to SAVE TORREY PINES (Gliderport)!!!! -Pete #309 (I just donned my flame retardant suit). P.S.: For the record, I agree with Bill -- EVERY "club" should have a winch. And I think winch launches COULD compete with video games. |
#20
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To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...
On Oct 20, 11:10 am, 309 wrote:
On Oct 20, 9:45 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote: I don't think any tow plane ever pays for itself once all 'hidden' costs are considered. Operating an old rag and tube airplane of any kind is fraught with 'nickel & dime' costs that add up. The last time I took a hard look, a Pawnee runs about $150 USD/hour. With rapidly escalating costs of fuel and insurance, it will probably be $200/hour by next summer. You don't operate small airplanes to make money, you do it because you either need to or want to. Tugs are cost centers not profit centers. I think any club interested in lowering operating costs should be investigating winches. Bill Daniels I forgot to add my "turbine tow would require winch launch authorization" punch line. ;-) Thanks, Frank. If somebody made a twin-turbine-taildragger tug, you could get the tow pilots to PAY for that time (building time for th airlines...). Turbine Beech-18 gets logged as Complex-Multi-Taildragger-Turbine-High Performance time...worth $200.00 per hour for training to be a line pilot. Yeah, I'd go back to the club and put up with the politics for that! Since AUTO fuel will quickly be over $4.00 per gallon (it already has "traded" above that in Beverly Hills), the winches aren't going to be a hell of a lot better -- if we must insist on suckering, er I mean recruiting teenagers into our dying sport. (Flame away, guys...I'm trying to get my kids interested -- _I_ have a hard time competing with video games, even when I shut the power off). I suspect we'll soon be back to hilltops and bungee cords... Quick, we must assemble a protest march to SAVE TORREY PINES (Gliderport)!!!! -Pete #309 (I just donned my flame retardant suit). P.S.: For the record, I agree with Bill -- EVERY "club" should have a winch. And I think winch launches COULD compete with video games. Actually, a winch launch to 2000agl uses very little fuel. Getting to the gliderport will use far more. Frank |
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