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#11
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"Jack" wrote in message om... Dudley Henriques wrote: Sorry; no sale with me anyway. I see their URL finally disappeared from your responses, Dudley. Editing is good. The fact that they cross-posted to such a mix of NGs tells me their discretion is questionable, and they may not appreciate your objections. I would have had more respect for them had they presented these videos in some sort of a safety-related context, but then a moral sense of responsibility is not something held in high esteem these days. On the other hand, I gain some insight into the physical dynamics of air crashes from seeing this type of video, and I think that is valuable. Cognizance of the human toll, about which you have correctly reminded us, is essential. Jack Admittedly, my perspective on the issue is personal, as I have seen many close friends die in these crashes, and I agree with you, that presented properly, crash video has tremendous capability in educating within the flight safety context. This however, was not done in this case, and hence, my strong objection. All the best as always, D |
#12
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"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message ... like you guys to take this off USENET though Suggestion; Take out the cross posting as I have done to eliminate all but the 2 groups I want to use for this issue, then simply resist the temptation to hit the send key with a Usenet police post like this one. Works wonders! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the at with what goes there and take out the Z's please! dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet |
#13
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What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for
reasons other than flight safety? I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I require you justify yourself to me. Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning. I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is entertaining to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by the success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds of county fairgrounds across America. Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst Police Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them depicting auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular. It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people like that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#14
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54... What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for reasons other than flight safety? I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I require you justify yourself to me. Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning. I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is entertaining to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by the success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds of county fairgrounds across America. Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst Police Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them depicting auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular. It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people like that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here. the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby". You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos "thrilling". Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly, the lack of ethics. I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the "thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people. Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS, crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage presented in this manner. But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****! These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the event, the more kudos for the photographer. Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71. His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these "photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!! Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our "hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical behavior. BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere , remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years ago to a stroke. We miss her very much. Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her. I hope he chokes on it! And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the at with what goes there and take out the Z's please! dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet |
#15
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I love WTC crash pictures!
Dudley Henriques wrote: "Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54... What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for reasons other than flight safety? I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I require you justify yourself to me. Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning. I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is entertaining to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by the success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds of county fairgrounds across America. Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst Police Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them depicting auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular. It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people like that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here. the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby". You are simply going off topic and stating a possible reason for WHY people might find crash video exciting and entertaining. Then you are backing this up by telling me that YOU find these crash videos "thrilling". Thrilling isn't the issue here. Ethics is the issue, or more correctly, the lack of ethics. I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the "thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people. Crash footage has a real and genuine use as a flight safety tool, and presented in the correct context, BY PEOPLE IN THE SAFETY BUSINESS, crash photography is welcomed by the safety community and the aviation community at large. There is much to be learned from crash footage presented in this manner. But don't tell me above all people that some photographer out there presenting his "wares" on the net that consist of gigs of crash video that he clearly states is his "hobby" has been presented as a public service or in a safety associated context. That's just plain bull ****! These people are engaged in enhancing their images within their community...that's it....that's all......nothing more than that. What's important to them is the film speed.....the equipment used.......and yes; the sheer excitement of the event itself...the more dramatic the event, the more kudos for the photographer. Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71. His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these "photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!! Crash video has a distinct place in our lives as pilots. We can learn from it if it's presented in the proper context, but to allow ourselves to be witness to a human tragedy for no other purpose than to enjoy our "hobby" or satisfy our desire for excitement is not my idea of ethical behavior. BTW, in closing...that pilot friend's widow, I'll just call her Jere , remained a lifelong friend of ours. We finally lost her several years ago to a stroke. We miss her very much. Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her. I hope he chokes on it! And this is just ONE instance of many I've experienced through the years concerning "crash photographers with a "hobby"!!! Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the at with what goes there and take out the Z's please! dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet |
#16
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:zem_c.101871$9d6.78381@attbi_s54... What, precisely, do you see wrong with viewing aircraft crashes for reasons other than flight safety? I feel no need to justify my reasoning to you on the subject of viewing aircraft crash videos outside the safety context, any more than I require you justify yourself to me. Actually, I was just curious as to your reasoning. I don't pretend to understand *why* viewing vehicle crashes is entertaining to the masses -- but it clearly is. Evidence of this is clearly seen by the success of NASCAR (now the number one sport in the world, based on attendance), or the popularity of "demolition derbies" at any of hundreds of county fairgrounds across America. Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football (soccer)? Further evidence can be seen by the proliferation of "America's Worst Police Chases"-type of programming. These police videos -- many of them depicting auto wrecks and gunfights -- are hugely popular. It's a peculiar phenomenon, I'll give you that -- but to "detest people like that" is to despise a huge percentage of Americans. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#17
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Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football
(soccer)? I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been spouting. I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several hundred thousand "fans" in attendance. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#18
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You are injecting oranges into an apples discussing here.
the issue of whether or not crashes are entertaining to the masses is a whole different issue than the ethics of putting crash video out on the net for entertainment or to project one's "hobby". I see them as different sides of the same coin. One begets the other, IMHO. I would not argue that crash footage isn't "thrilling". I would argue however, that those who engage in both providing such footage on the net for general viewing , and viewing such footage for the purpose of the "thrill" involved, and trying to pass their prurient interest off as being associated with flight safety are not my kind of people. If it's hypocrisy you're angry about, I'm with you. But I don't think the original poster was trying to pass his site off as being associated with flight safety in any way. Don't try selling ME this crap as a safety issue. I know better. I stood at the crash site of a close friend during the Cape May Air Races in 71. His body was still in the cockpit of his AT6 crushed like a dishrag. I held his wife in my arms as she tried hysterically to break away and climb in the cockpit with her husband. I can still feel her shaking and screaming to this day. I watched as a spectator....one of these "photographers" we're discussing here....ran over to where we were standing and took a picture, not of the wreck, but of HER!!!! Some of the greatest photographs of our time -- many Pulitzer Prize winners -- have been snapped in just such a fashion. Not to defend that photographer's actions, or to minimize your friend's anguish -- personally, I couldn't do such a thing, emotionally or technically -- but this event would clearly be labeled as "breaking news" by most journalists, and there are writers and photographers out there whose main job it is to cover these types of events. Somewhere on this planet, a complete stranger, a person with a camera who didn't know her, and could have cared less about her, has a picture he took without her permission, at the most horrible and personal moment of her life,that allows him to share that moment in time with her. I hope he chokes on it! I understand your emotion, but I think it's misplaced. Flying airplanes in an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds of an accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good. Your friend knew the risks, and knowingly took them. He also knew -- as did you -- that the race course was ringed with spectators and journalists with cameras. To expect photographers to turn away from a spectacular airplane crash is pretty unreasonable. To expect a photographer NOT to snap a picture of someone trying to run toward a plane wreck is unrealistic. To expect these same photographs to be destroyed, or never published, is even less realistic. The internet is just the newest form of publishing, a natural progression from Guttenberg until today. This guy's website is just an electronic book -- photos printed with electrons instead of ink. Although I understand your distaste, Dudley, you are railing against human nature. A darker side of it, for sure -- but it's human nature nonetheless. You're not going to change it. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#19
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54... Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football (soccer)? I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been spouting. I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several hundred thousand "fans" in attendance. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" Jay, I checked the NASCAR site (http://www.nascar.com/2004/promos/20...world_drivers/) and I can only see them claiming to be the US's top spectator sport. I'll buy that - like you, I have no way to verify it. However, I can't believe it's the *world's* top spectator sport: football/soccer must pull in many more, whether on TV or at the stadiums. |
#20
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:40p_c.102614$9d6.102101@attbi_s54... Is this true? Do NASCAR attendances really exceed those of football (soccer)? I have no way to verify that -- it's just what the media has been spouting. I suppose it's not surprising, since a single race can have several hundred thousand "fans" in attendance. -- Jay Honeck The media out here in SoCal are claiming that the weekend's attendance at the Fontana Raceway will exceed the count at three NFL Super Bowls. According to: http://netscape.nascar.com/2004/news...30/california/ "92,000 -- The announced grandstand seating capacity of California Speedway. " The actual count is 92,109 according to the Speedway officials, but hey..... Oh, I should also point out that is the number of seats in the grandstands -- it does not include all the RVs parked around the infield. |
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