THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: "Jim Doyle"
Date: 2/2/04 1:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Two Bad Days Over the Deadly RR Bridges


Railroad bridges were brutally defended. Knock out a RR bridge and you
have cut
transport for possibly hundreds of miles . And while repairing track took
only
a few hours. rebulding a RR bridge over a river or chasm might take weeks.
We
had some of our heaviest losses over these bridges. On the 13th of
February
1945 we attacked the RR Bridge at Euskirchen. We lost two aircraft over
the
target. We lost Yeager and his crew and Williams (one chute seen to open)
and
his crew. The very next day we hit the Engers RR bridge and we lost 5
aircraft
over the target. Brennen,Holms, Jones, Nelson and Meppen and crews were
lost
but three chutes were seen you open. Two bridges,two days, seven crews
lost. A
lot of empty bunks at the 344th. And the war was almost over. What a time
to
die.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Couldn't they find a better/safer way to take out bridges? Loss rates like
that must've been very hard to sustain. Did they soften-up the AA with
fighter strafes, or would that give the game away too easily?

Jim D



Some bridges had to be taken out no matter the the cost. This bridge was used
to resupply German forces attacking Omah beach. Our losses were the price we
paid to protect the attacking infantry. Go to my website and see, "DEATH OF A
BRIDGE". Look at the two photos carefully. Very carefuly Then read the caption
at the bottom of the page. Results like this are the sort of attacks I lived
for. Made my day.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/2/04 1:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:08:04 -0000, "Jim Doyle"
wrote:

Couldn't they find a better/safer way to take out bridges? Loss rates like
that must've been very hard to sustain. Did they soften-up the AA with
fighter strafes, or would that give the game away too easily?

Jim D


Bridges are among the most difficult targets for manual bombing. They
are narrow, usually in a constricted area, always heavily defended.
Art's experience in WW II is typical of the very same things we
experienced in Vietnam. The Bac Giang and Bac Ninh bridges on the NE
railroad out of Hanoi claimed a lot of airplanes and the Dragon Jaw
bridge at Thanh Hoa is the stuff of legends.

The Doumer Bridge raids in '67 and again in '72 were similarly
hazardous.

The only thing that has changed the equation is the advent of, first,
LGB and now GPS weapons with stand-off capability.

Defense suppression is a rewarding job, but it ain't no puss game.

"Soften up the AA with fighter strafes".... First rule is never duel
with a gun bigger than your own.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

If the bridge was weak enough they would send in P-47's with 500 pounders siung
under their wings. They did a good job but took horrible losses. Often worse
than we did. Poor brave *******s.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 2/2/04 3:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:08:04 -0000, "Jim Doyle"
wrote:

Couldn't they find a better/safer way to take out bridges? Loss rates
like
that must've been very hard to sustain. Did they soften-up the AA with
fighter strafes, or would that give the game away too easily?

Jim D


Bridges are among the most difficult targets for manual bombing. They
are narrow, usually in a constricted area, always heavily defended.
Art's experience in WW II is typical of the very same things we
experienced in Vietnam. The Bac Giang and Bac Ninh bridges on the NE
railroad out of Hanoi claimed a lot of airplanes and the Dragon Jaw
bridge at Thanh Hoa is the stuff of legends.



617 Squadron took some of their heaviest losses attacking bridges
in Germany, it wasnt until they got the Tallboy and GrandSlam
weapons that they got weapons that could reliably knock
down a bridge as they could do it with a near miss

Keith


Taking out the bridges is easy. It is getting away alive that is tough.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/2/04 4:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 23:21:04 -0000, "Jim Doyle"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:08:04 -0000, "Jim Doyle"
wrote:

Did they soften-up the AA with
fighter strafes, or would that give the game away too easily?

Jim D

Defense suppression is a rewarding job, but it ain't no puss game.

"Soften up the AA with fighter strafes".... First rule is never duel
with a gun bigger than your own.

I guess that would be pretty stupid! Surely there must've been some
counter-AA tactics used by the allies other than hoping to take them out
with the target?

In Vietnam was this role taken-up by the Weasel variants? Or did AA prove to
hard/costly to strike specifically?

The Weasel variants (F-100F, F-105F, F-105G and only briefly F-4C
Weasel) in Vietnam were radar detection systems and armed typically
with ARMs. While not reluctant to attack SAM sites, they were a
specialized system in short supply.

The Weasel escorts usually got the job of killing the SAM site with
CBU, rockets or plain iron bombs.

Flak suppression was a standard mission. It could be done by one
member in a flight of four, loaded with CBU being given the task or a
flight of four within a strike package of four or five flights having
the job. An area munition like CBU-24, 52 or 58 was very effective at
flak suppression. While it wouldn't insure a "gun kill" it was very
good at "gunner kill."

Defense suppression is always part of the task and ignoring the guns
is usually not a good tactic.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Did they have flak towers in Nam?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Two Bad Days Over the Deadly RR Bridges


Railroad bridges were brutally defended. Knock out a RR bridge and you have cut
transport for possibly hundreds of miles . And while repairing track took only
a few hours. rebulding a RR bridge over a river or chasm might take weeks. We
had some of our heaviest losses over these bridges. On the 13th of February
1945 we attacked the RR Bridge at Euskirchen. We lost two aircraft over the
target. We lost Yeager and his crew and Williams (one chute seen to open) and
his crew. The very next day we hit the Engers RR bridge and we lost 5 aircraft
over the target. Brennen,Holms, Jones, Nelson and Meppen and crews were lost
but three chutes were seen you open. Two bridges,two days, seven crews lost. A
lot of empty bunks at the 344th. And the war was almost over. What a time to
die.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art,

It must have been these tough nuts to crack that were to motivation for
the weapons system I'm working on now. The AGM-130 and GBU-15 are
basically a 2000 lb low drag iron bomb with a daylight TV or IR TV video
seeker head up front and a control package, television transmitter, and
BIG fins on the back. The AGM-130 also has a 400lb rocket booster to
increase its range. These are both controlled by AXQ-14 data link pods
carried by F-15E's

I just saw some footage today of these things doing their job on
Yugoslav bridges. They are accurate, and controllable enough to hit
either the bridge arches, beams, or piers exactly where you want to hit
them. There is a pride in working on these things knowing that that 1)
they are such an effective weapon and 2) they do the job without putting
air crews in such terrible danger as Art faced.

There are some things you just can't do with laser or GPS guided
weapons. Much of the world where bad people live has heavy cloud cover
and too many SAMS to safely lase targets. GPS guided bombs hit things
from the top and only the top. I just saw the proof of how effective it
is to hit parts of bridges from the side. Sometimes the bad guys hide
high value targets under overpases. I think the dictator of Yugoslavia
gave up because they put a 2000lb bomb into the LEFT patio door of an
apartment he frequently visited.

I remember the sacrifices it took to hit the tough targets. One of the
best parts of my job is to tell people how many american air crews these
things save. All the while whe're building these things in the old
Norden bombsight factory:-). Start out good, get better.

--
Dana Miller

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Dana Miller
Date: 2/2/04 9:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Two Bad Days Over the Deadly RR Bridges


Railroad bridges were brutally defended. Knock out a RR bridge and you have
cut
transport for possibly hundreds of miles . And while repairing track took
only
a few hours. rebulding a RR bridge over a river or chasm might take weeks.
We
had some of our heaviest losses over these bridges. On the 13th of February
1945 we attacked the RR Bridge at Euskirchen. We lost two aircraft over the
target. We lost Yeager and his crew and Williams (one chute seen to open)
and
his crew. The very next day we hit the Engers RR bridge and we lost 5
aircraft
over the target. Brennen,Holms, Jones, Nelson and Meppen and crews were lost
but three chutes were seen you open. Two bridges,two days, seven crews lost.
A
lot of empty bunks at the 344th. And the war was almost over. What a time to
die.
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Art,

It must have been these tough nuts to crack that were to motivation for
the weapons system I'm working on now. The AGM-130 and GBU-15 are
basically a 2000 lb low drag iron bomb with a daylight TV or IR TV video
seeker head up front and a control package, television transmitter, and
BIG fins on the back. The AGM-130 also has a 400lb rocket booster to
increase its range. These are both controlled by AXQ-14 data link pods
carried by F-15E's

I just saw some footage today of these things doing their job on
Yugoslav bridges. They are accurate, and controllable enough to hit
either the bridge arches, beams, or piers exactly where you want to hit
them. There is a pride in working on these things knowing that that 1)
they are such an effective weapon and 2) they do the job without putting
air crews in such terrible danger as Art faced.

There are some things you just can't do with laser or GPS guided
weapons. Much of the world where bad people live has heavy cloud cover
and too many SAMS to safely lase targets. GPS guided bombs hit things
from the top and only the top. I just saw the proof of how effective it
is to hit parts of bridges from the side. Sometimes the bad guys hide
high value targets under overpases. I think the dictator of Yugoslavia
gave up because they put a 2000lb bomb into the LEFT patio door of an
apartment he frequently visited.

I remember the sacrifices it took to hit the tough targets. One of the
best parts of my job is to tell people how many american air crews these
things save. All the while whe're building these things in the old
Norden bombsight factory:-). Start out good, get better.

--
Dana Miller


Wish we had that stuff back then. A lot of good men would still be with us.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 05:23:36 GMT, Dana Miller
wrote:

It must have been these tough nuts to crack that were to motivation for
the weapons system I'm working on now. The AGM-130 and GBU-15 are
basically a 2000 lb low drag iron bomb with a daylight TV or IR TV video
seeker head up front and a control package, television transmitter, and
BIG fins on the back. The AGM-130 also has a 400lb rocket booster to
increase its range. These are both controlled by AXQ-14 data link pods
carried by F-15E's

Still working on daylight TV guided bombs? They seemed to work pretty
good on F-4Ds at Ubon, Thailand about 37 years ago.G

I just saw some footage today of these things doing their job on
Yugoslav bridges. They are accurate, and controllable enough to hit
either the bridge arches, beams, or piers exactly where you want to hit
them. There is a pride in working on these things knowing that that 1)
they are such an effective weapon and 2) they do the job without putting
air crews in such terrible danger as Art faced.

There are some things you just can't do with laser or GPS guided
weapons. Much of the world where bad people live has heavy cloud cover
and too many SAMS to safely lase targets. GPS guided bombs hit things
from the top and only the top. I just saw the proof of how effective it
is to hit parts of bridges from the side. Sometimes the bad guys hide
high value targets under overpases. I think the dictator of Yugoslavia
gave up because they put a 2000lb bomb into the LEFT patio door of an
apartment he frequently visited.

I remember the sacrifices it took to hit the tough targets. One of the
best parts of my job is to tell people how many american air crews these
things save. All the while whe're building these things in the old
Norden bombsight factory:-). Start out good, get better.

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Dana Miller
Date: 2/2/04 9:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Two Bad Days Over the Deadly RR Bridges

SNIP

There are some things you just can't do with laser or GPS guided
weapons. Much of the world where bad people live has heavy cloud cover
and too many SAMS to safely lase targets. GPS guided bombs hit things
from the top and only the top. I just saw the proof of how effective it
is to hit parts of bridges from the side. Sometimes the bad guys hide
high value targets under overpases. I think the dictator of Yugoslavia
gave up because they put a 2000lb bomb into the LEFT patio door of an
apartment he frequently visited.

I remember the sacrifices it took to hit the tough targets. One of the
best parts of my job is to tell people how many american air crews these
things save. All the while whe're building these things in the old
Norden bombsight factory:-). Start out good, get better.

--
Dana Miller


Wish we had that stuff back then. A lot of good men would still be with us.


You did have something similar. The USAF had AZON and used it and I
think RAZON as well. Radio controlled bombs Designed to hit bridges.
They worked similarly to the Luftwaffe's Fritz X except that AZON
stood for azimuth only and RAZON as range and azimuth only.

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: (Eunometic)
Date: 2/3/04 5:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Dana Miller
Date: 2/2/04 9:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

Two Bad Days Over the Deadly RR Bridges

SNIP

There are some things you just can't do with laser or GPS guided
weapons. Much of the world where bad people live has heavy cloud cover
and too many SAMS to safely lase targets. GPS guided bombs hit things
from the top and only the top. I just saw the proof of how effective it
is to hit parts of bridges from the side. Sometimes the bad guys hide
high value targets under overpases. I think the dictator of Yugoslavia
gave up because they put a 2000lb bomb into the LEFT patio door of an
apartment he frequently visited.

I remember the sacrifices it took to hit the tough targets. One of the
best parts of my job is to tell people how many american air crews these
things save. All the while whe're building these things in the old
Norden bombsight factory:-). Start out good, get better.

--
Dana Miller


Wish we had that stuff back then. A lot of good men would still be with us.


You did have something similar. The USAF had AZON and used it and I
think RAZON as well. Radio controlled bombs Designed to hit bridges.
They worked similarly to the Luftwaffe's Fritz X except that AZON
stood for azimuth only and RAZON as range and azimuth only.


Never even saw one. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 03 Feb 2004 04:02:17 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: THE DEADLY RAILROAD BRIDGES
From: Ed Rasimus

Flak suppression was a standard mission. It could be done by one
member in a flight of four, loaded with CBU being given the task or a
flight of four within a strike package of four or five flights having
the job. An area munition like CBU-24, 52 or 58 was very effective at
flak suppression. While it wouldn't insure a "gun kill" it was very
good at "gunner kill."

Defense suppression is always part of the task and ignoring the guns
is usually not a good tactic.

Ed Rasimus

Did they have flak towers in Nam?


Arthur Kramer

No flak towers. They had an integrated air defense system with radar
early warning, SA-2 SAMs, ground radar controlled interceptors with
guns and missiles, and a range of guns from 12.7/14.5 automatic
weapons through 23mm high rate cannon, 37/57mm radar and optically
guided AAA and 85mm/100mm big guns.

No flak towers, but lots of well coordinated flak.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8