F15E/1941

On Mon, 31 May 2004 12:01:02 -0400, (Peter Stickney) wrote:

In article ,
Alan Minyard writes:
On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:36:23 -0400, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Bob

I carry 4x cluster bombs per aircraft (just in case I miss with one or two),
and all the sidewinders and 20mm the F-15 will haul. I'm hitting the
carriers with cluster bombs, which ought to do a number on any aircraft and
people on deck. The secondaries from the Japanese munitions will finish the
job on the carriers. Once the carriers are lit up like the 4th of July, I
take out bombers and torpedo planes until I exhaust my supply of
sidewinders. Following that, I go plinking with 20 mm. I don't waste my
time shooting up Zero's unless there is nothing else to shoot at.

KB

AIM 9s at recips?? I doubt if you would ever get a tone.

They do, and quite nicely. Recip exhaust gas is very hot. Teh
volume's lower, but that doesn't really matter - a Sidewinder's seeker
is looking at temperature, not volume.
Remember - the seekers these days are able to see the aerodynamic
heating on the leading edges of a subsonic airplane - that's not very
much.

Thanks, I have had no experience with the Winder. That is indeed an
amazing capability.

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:36:23 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:


"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Bob

I carry 4x cluster bombs per aircraft (just in case I miss with one or
two),
and all the sidewinders and 20mm the F-15 will haul. I'm hitting the
carriers with cluster bombs, which ought to do a number on any aircraft
and
people on deck. The secondaries from the Japanese munitions will finish
the
job on the carriers. Once the carriers are lit up like the 4th of July,
I
take out bombers and torpedo planes until I exhaust my supply of
sidewinders. Following that, I go plinking with 20 mm. I don't waste my
time shooting up Zero's unless there is nothing else to shoot at.

KB

AIM 9s at recips?? I doubt if you would ever get a tone.

Al Minyard

If they can get head on shots at jets based on airframe heating, I presume
they can see hot exhaust stacks and other hot spots on recips. I don't
claim to be particularly knowledgable about IR missiles (or any missiles,
for that matter), so it would be great if someone more knowledgable could
jump in...

KB

In message , Alan Minyard
writes
AIM 9s at recips?? I doubt if you would ever get a tone.

Certainly would. Even the original seeker (uncooled lead sulphide,
really basic) would track a flashlight or a lit cigarette, and the
exhausts and propellers of 900hp recips are *hot*. By the time you're up
to AIM-9L or thereabouts, you should be able to get a workable
acquisition on a reciprocating engine unless the background clutter's
hateful (and this would be over ocean, in good weather, with the
attacker choosing altitude and aspect at leisure)

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...
I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.

B61's, and as many AIM-9/AIM-120's we could carry.


Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)

Vaporize the carriers, then chase down and destroy as many of the already
launched planes as we have missiles/20MM for.


Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?

Full AB to Pearl, land, taxi to the HQ building. A couple of full AB runups
should get the duty officers attention.

Pete

Pete wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...

I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.


B61's, and as many AIM-9/AIM-120's we could carry.


Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)


Vaporize the carriers, then chase down and destroy as many of the already
launched planes as we have missiles/20MM for.


Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?


Full AB to Pearl, land, taxi to the HQ building. A couple of full AB runups
should get the duty officers attention.

Pete


Although i agree the nukes are a "finisher", i was thinking more along
the lines of conventional weapons to make it more interesting.
Would a agm-65 be usable in this situation? laser guided bombs
certainly would.
Someone suggested a cluster bomb, but how would you target it on a
moving target?

And i believe the gun has 450 rounds capacity? That would not allow much
of a squirt per zero. And given the zero has superior low speed
maneuverability, how would you approach the gun shots?

Bob



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"Bob Urz" wrote

Although i agree the nukes are a "finisher", i was thinking more along
the lines of conventional weapons to make it more interesting.
Would a agm-65 be usable in this situation? laser guided bombs
certainly would.

At this point, all we need to do is kill the flight deck, and disable as
many unlaunched planes as we can.
AGM-65 is probably too small to be effective.
F-15E can carry 8x500 lb (GBU-12 or MK-82). Use those. 2 ea holes in the
flight deck would take it out of action.

Someone suggested a cluster bomb, but how would you target it on a
moving target?

It's not moving that fast. Targeting wouldn't be that hard (lead it a
little)
The bomblets would be enough to disable some/most of the aircraft on deck,
but maybe not enough to take the flight deck out of operation.


And i believe the gun has 450 rounds capacity? That would not allow much
of a squirt per zero. And given the zero has superior low speed
maneuverability, how would you approach the gun shots?

From behind. Pick them off one by one. If you're lucky, you'll get a few
before the guys in front notice. Once they DO notice, leave and call the
cavalry. You're vastly outnumbered. Notification is more important than
trying to get "just one more".

Pete
Knowing what we know now, I still maintain that with an unrestricted weapons
load, B61 is the only way to go.

"Pete" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote

Although i agree the nukes are a "finisher", i was thinking more along
the lines of conventional weapons to make it more interesting.
Would a agm-65 be usable in this situation? laser guided bombs
certainly would.

At this point, all we need to do is kill the flight deck, and disable as
many unlaunched planes as we can.
AGM-65 is probably too small to be effective.
F-15E can carry 8x500 lb (GBU-12 or MK-82). Use those. 2 ea holes in the
flight deck would take it out of action.


Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs. Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation. At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese damage
control efforts. At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship. If the magazines were the aimpoint (with Google handy so that the WSO
could look it up for each ship) then the chances of sinking with a single
bomb goes up. Otherwise, a hit aft could put all four screws and possibly
rudders out of service. The ships killed at Midway were caught with all
manner of munitions and avgas available to help things along because of the
conflict between finishing off the Midway garrison and killing the US
carriers. It's unlikely that the Pearl Harbor strike would be that sloppy.

On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:15:50 -0400, "Paul F Austin"
wrote:

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship. If the magazines were the aimpoint (with Google handy so that the WSO
could look it up for each ship) then the chances of sinking with a single
bomb goes up. Otherwise, a hit aft could put all four screws and possibly
rudders out of service. The ships killed at Midway were caught with all
manner of munitions and avgas available to help things along because of the
conflict between finishing off the Midway garrison and killing the US
carriers. It's unlikely that the Pearl Harbor strike would be that sloppy.

I'd put the initial LGB hit aft, so that it takes out the landing area
- almost as good as killing the CVs would be killing most of the Kido
Butai. After all the Japanese were distinctly average after their
seasoned pilots were lost.

Peter Kemp

"Paul F Austin" wrote

Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs.
Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation.

A few hours later, you have gone to Pearl, and notified HQ of the deal.

At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since
the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs
with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese damage
control efforts.

Remember, 1/2 the attack force is already on the way. You need to slow them
down as much as possible.

At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship.

Which is why I thought 16 MK-82 vs 8 MK-84. Smaller warhead, yes, but more
hits.

The real question is, can 2 Strike Eagles sink all 6 carriers? Maybe, maybe
not. There are only two of you, with limited ordnance. Slow them down as
much as possible until you can shake things up at Pearl.

Pete

"Paul F Austin" wrote in message
.. .
At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

Would a 1941-era fuel truck be able to get gas into a F-15E?